Scripture Study 2020-08-19

YouTube Link

Summary:

We talk about the LDS Temple, Torah, the daily Performances and Ordinances and the Law of Moses, The Godhead specifically the Holy Spirit/Ghost, Fulfil, history repeats, flaming sword is the baptism of fire and of the Holy Spirit.
Nehemia Gordon brings out in Hebrew Gospel Pearls Plus that Yeshua nam is in the Tanak/OT, which is important because people criticize the Book of Mormon for the prophets knowing Yeshua’s/Jesus’ name before His birth.

Links:

Transcript:

00:00:00 the uh and actually let me get some
00:00:02 scriptures here so i can actually
00:00:04 reference things
00:00:05 sure sure uh i i’m not an expert
00:00:09 uh but i do put time into studying these
00:00:12 things
00:00:13 uh that makes you
00:00:18 well that’s exactly my purpose and kind
00:00:21 of bringing it
00:00:22 up like this is i really would like you
00:00:24 to work it through i think
00:00:26 you know it’s what’s the old saying like
00:00:28 you know sharp
00:00:29 steel sharpened steel or something
00:00:30 that’s you know hard objects uh
00:00:33 sure if you’re not let me look are you
00:00:36 in my
00:00:37 um
00:00:40 are you in the nazarene group or the
00:00:54 i’ll give you the link um yeah yeah just
00:00:57 send it over you’re good
00:00:58 so here’s here’s the thing i’d like to
00:00:59 discuss with you are you good as far as
00:01:01 starting now and
00:01:02 uh sure um i i just
00:01:06 i got a little visitor real quick hey so
00:01:08 i’m hoping my friend chad will pop in
00:01:11 um okay he uh like say
00:01:14 uh he was a maybe on your your thing
00:01:16 tonight
00:01:18 so actually it’s not very popular on so
00:01:21 it’s funny that you’re saying people are
00:01:22 talking about me because
00:01:23 i i don’t see me as very popular
00:01:27 well what it is is you’re unique and i’m
00:01:29 unique with you
00:01:30 okay so i would definitely agree with
00:01:32 that i’m i’m unique
00:01:34 yep exactly that’s okay that’s okay the
00:01:37 uh i i am curious to kind of go down
00:01:41 this train of thought
00:01:43 that i have and i want you to help me
00:01:45 see if it makes sense
00:01:46 okay sure so let’s go to first nephi 13
00:01:52 okay and specifically verse 25 is kind
00:01:56 of my
00:01:57 linchpin is i guess kind of the word
00:01:59 that i’m using
00:02:00 on it
00:02:06 well and i guess actually let me let me
00:02:08 back up another thing that i feel like
00:02:10 we don’t appreciate
00:02:12 is the temple and as far as what it is
00:02:15 are you lds like what’s your background
00:02:16 i grew up lds i am xlds um
00:02:21 i i give you a post i used to believe in
00:02:24 the temple even after i
00:02:25 removed my name and i was going i was
00:02:28 gonna plan
00:02:29 on making my own garments yeah
00:02:32 um but i
00:02:35 later became uh to a different
00:02:37 realization
00:02:38 and we don’t have to talk about this
00:02:40 i’ll just give you the post oh that’s
00:02:41 fine
00:02:42 later yeah yeah um so let me let me walk
00:02:45 through what i see
00:02:46 just actually
00:02:52 after i removed my name and all this
00:02:54 stuff because i i still
00:02:56 liked it for a long time i don’t anymore
00:02:58 um yeah that’s fine
00:03:00 anyways sure but go ahead and give your
00:03:02 well at least you have some some
00:03:04 background so let me let me go i’m aware
00:03:06 i used to be a mason too
00:03:08 um oh wow cool you got all kinds of
00:03:10 background well okay it’s not all good
00:03:14 that’s all right don’t worry about it
00:03:16 okay so
00:03:17 here’s the deal in the uh in the temple
00:03:21 we use a phrase
00:03:22 called uh we’re there to be instructed
00:03:24 okay
00:03:26 now instruction you know ties directly
00:03:29 to the word torah
00:03:30 yes it does um in fact
00:03:34 jewish translate oh i see it’s
00:03:38 someone yeah perfect pop in chat
00:03:41 clark is that childhood yeah that’s my
00:03:44 friend chad
00:03:46 adam okay well um
00:03:49 so in um in
00:03:52 jewish translations where
00:03:56 um christian translations will say law
00:03:59 they’ll say
00:04:00 law torah instructions
00:04:03 the jews kind of use these words
00:04:05 interchangeably
00:04:06 there’s my favorite hippie how are you
00:04:08 chad
00:04:12 oh no audio i can’t hear you yeah i
00:04:15 can’t hear him either
00:04:17 do i have a mute on accident i don’t
00:04:19 think so i didn’t have to
00:04:20 move you no
00:04:23 i i i don’t have a muted okay
00:04:27 so i’m i don’t know what’s going on
00:04:29 there sorry
00:04:31 can you hear us chad give us a thumbs up
00:04:35 uh he froze nope there’s
00:04:39 no can you hear us chad thumbs up thumbs
00:04:41 down
00:04:45 uh he didn’t do anything so i don’t
00:04:47 think he can hear us
00:04:49 interesting no connecting audio
00:04:52 there we go
00:04:56 you hear us shad oh can’t hear you
00:05:00 but can you hear us now now can you hear
00:05:02 me oh there we go
00:05:04 there we go now we’re guys okay well
00:05:06 what i was saying chad there’s my
00:05:07 favorite hippie it’s good to see you man
00:05:10 yeah he can’t be a hippie he doesn’t
00:05:12 have dreadlocks
00:05:14 yeah it’s all good i just like teasing
00:05:16 the man
00:05:17 hey so so just real quick i’m in
00:05:20 argentina right now
00:05:21 in in hippies in argentina at
00:05:24 uh intersections they go out in the
00:05:27 middle of the
00:05:28 the road well at the crosswalk part
00:05:30 right so they’re
00:05:31 not in the way but then they’ll perform
00:05:34 some juggling or other
00:05:35 skits and hoping that you’ll give them
00:05:36 money
00:05:38 it’s very common here in argentina at
00:05:41 least
00:05:42 that’s why man that’s why anyways
00:05:45 sorry cool hey so
00:05:49 the i was gonna kind of talk through
00:05:51 some ideas
00:05:52 um with stephen as far as my ideas on
00:05:56 kind of the connection with the temple
00:05:58 uh the bible kind of some things that
00:06:01 you and i have talked briefly about chad
00:06:03 and i was thinking it would be fun for
00:06:05 you to at least hear
00:06:06 the kind of the conversation and throw
00:06:09 in some input and see what you you think
00:06:11 too
00:06:11 and so i like to say i’m glad you could
00:06:13 join us so i’m just gonna give this
00:06:15 uh oh okay yeah i’m
00:06:19 very aware of that one um
00:06:22 yeah and i i have a post about it if you
00:06:25 want
00:06:27 i’ll give you a link and you can look at
00:06:29 it later
00:06:30 um yeah i just bought it
00:06:34 i’m going to read through it before i
00:06:37 sure it has some good things in
00:06:41 in it just be careful with it
00:06:44 um and you can go read that post
00:06:48 i give you another since we’re talking
00:06:49 about the temple i don’t know if you saw
00:06:51 all the chats i give you my
00:06:53 holy spirit and holy ghost post which i
00:06:55 talk about the temple in there some
00:06:57 and we can talk about it more as things
00:06:59 come up um
00:07:01 but anyways i’m kind of an ignoramus on
00:07:03 this thing man if
00:07:04 uh if it’s something i have to click
00:07:06 right now i’m not very good at it
00:07:08 so uh when you can you know
00:07:11 in gym there’s a chat window or
00:07:14 tab i don’t know what the right word is
00:07:16 i mean everybody uses different on my
00:07:17 iphone it’s
00:07:18 goofy so maybe i should try to open up
00:07:20 my ipad
00:07:22 well i i put it with the the video when
00:07:24 i put it on youtube
00:07:25 so if you can’t get it right now you can
00:07:27 get them
00:07:28 um okay um
00:07:32 oh man there uh there’s a bunch of
00:07:35 thoughts i’m curious to kind of walk
00:07:37 through with you
00:07:38 sure but i think the the thing that i
00:07:40 want to say
00:07:41 is um there’s a parallel
00:07:44 between the way god worked
00:07:48 with the jews at the time of moses
00:07:53 and the patterns that was from moses to
00:07:55 jesus christ
00:07:57 and i believe that pattern plays out
00:08:00 between
00:08:00 joseph smith and the coming of jesus
00:08:04 christ
00:08:05 i in general i would agree with that in
00:08:07 fact
00:08:08 i would add that and i have said this
00:08:11 that
00:08:12 moses was a restorer yeshua jesus was a
00:08:15 restorer
00:08:16 just like joseph smith was a restorer
00:08:19 perfect
00:08:20 so by the way that also matches the
00:08:22 three feasts
00:08:24 pattern and i feel like that relates
00:08:27 to and the specifically the three that
00:08:31 they’re supposed to everyone’s to appear
00:08:32 before
00:08:33 before and here’s another one for you
00:08:36 that i
00:08:37 i’ve thought about and i haven’t put a
00:08:38 lot of thought into but just a
00:08:40 at least a weak connection in 35 11
00:08:43 it was after three times that they then
00:08:46 recognized it
00:08:48 yeah yeah no that’s fascinating you’re
00:08:50 exactly right that’s a
00:08:51 very interesting thought and ultimately
00:08:54 you know after the third we’re going to
00:08:55 have
00:08:56 the second coming you know we’re looking
00:08:59 forward to that
00:09:00 when we will all recognize them
00:09:01 hopefully so um
00:09:04 so anyways i i i didn’t quite say it but
00:09:07 that i think was is a prophecy in 35 11
00:09:11 to three times then recognized moses
00:09:14 christ joseph smith three times then we
00:09:17 recognize it but
00:09:18 because i i may be pulling it out
00:09:22 of nowhere but i think i see patterns
00:09:25 that
00:09:25 say that and i think you can see it in
00:09:28 that at least i see it in that statement
00:09:30 in 35 11.
00:09:32 okay anyways um
00:09:36 yes i think you’re exactly right
00:09:39 okay so let’s let’s talk about
00:09:42 some of the pattern uh just specifically
00:09:46 moses
00:09:47 to jesus and then joseph smith so
00:09:50 at moses at mount sinai the goal was to
00:09:54 enter the presence of the lord
00:09:56 established zion
00:09:58 when he wanted the whole congregation to
00:10:00 do it
00:10:01 exactly but they didn’t i mean
00:10:05 and this is i mean a lot of
00:10:08 worlds or christendom or just jews or
00:10:11 just
00:10:11 religious don’t think that you can go
00:10:13 see god
00:10:14 right it’s the problem is you can’t see
00:10:16 him in your sins and live
00:10:19 you can see him in fact moses
00:10:23 uh i i could find the chapter for you if
00:10:25 you want
00:10:26 but he brought 70 give or take
00:10:29 with him to up the mountain to see god
00:10:32 yeah
00:10:33 so perfectly fine with all that for sure
00:10:35 okay yeah
00:10:36 the uh the thing that i’m i’m kind of
00:10:38 driving at though is when the people
00:10:40 turned from god at the end of exodus 20
00:10:44 god shifted into
00:10:47 literally preparing to take moses from
00:10:49 their midst and he began
00:10:51 to expound upon symbolic ordinances
00:10:55 and um and essentially
00:10:59 the pattern is is when god’s taking the
00:11:01 servant that was going to lead them to
00:11:03 his presence
00:11:04 then he gives them symbolic ordinances
00:11:07 that are supposed to teach them
00:11:09 and that’s where we get the details of
00:11:11 the temple the
00:11:12 details of the offering every one of
00:11:14 those
00:11:16 offerings and um ordinances in the
00:11:19 temple
00:11:20 was teaching them you know more about
00:11:23 him and specifically more about christ
00:11:24 and more about you know the patterns
00:11:27 that you want
00:11:28 okay so this is something i’m still
00:11:30 working on figuring out a lot of the
00:11:32 details
00:11:33 but there’s
00:11:36 there’s torah uh and then there’s law of
00:11:39 moses
00:11:40 and this will probably get me in trouble
00:11:44 because i haven’t finished my all my
00:11:46 thoughts on this yet
00:11:47 but i do not believe
00:11:51 that law of moses is necessarily torah
00:11:54 okay i believe and i can give some
00:11:57 scriptures from the book of mormon
00:11:59 support this uh that the law of moses
00:12:02 was the daily performance and ordinances
00:12:05 that god gave them after you know
00:12:08 sinai event or kind of part of it you
00:12:10 know with the golden calf and whatnot
00:12:13 um that they
00:12:16 rejected what god gave them and they did
00:12:19 the wrong thing
00:12:20 and god was angry right and
00:12:24 he set the levites out to go kill those
00:12:27 who
00:12:28 broke the covenant that they already
00:12:30 made um
00:12:32 and then after that uh they got
00:12:36 they they got addition they didn’t get a
00:12:38 replacement law they got additional laws
00:12:41 and i think that’s one thing that a lot
00:12:42 of people
00:12:45 catch especially you know in the lds
00:12:47 culture they they got the lower law and
00:12:48 the higher law which you know that’s not
00:12:50 even in scriptures
00:12:53 but they they got they had the torah
00:12:56 and then they got the law of moses on
00:12:59 top of that
00:13:00 which i believe is the daily performance
00:13:04 and ordinances that
00:13:05 they had to do in the temple okay
00:13:08 so let me add to your thought and i
00:13:10 haven’t thought through that but i could
00:13:12 i think i could make sense of that
00:13:14 because actually i would say
00:13:16 that i i believe the same thing i’m
00:13:18 going to say it different though
00:13:20 is and i i tie it to the word torah the
00:13:23 the word torah is
00:13:24 ties to the word like it’s a archer’s
00:13:26 bow shot
00:13:28 and yeah and but that’s not the target
00:13:31 actually the little little heat that
00:13:34 right there is like a target right
00:13:35 sure and it’s like you know that the bow
00:13:38 shot
00:13:38 is like my trying to hit the target
00:13:42 and that’s the word torah which is
00:13:43 instruction every time he gives us
00:13:45 instruction it’s just like another bow
00:13:47 shot trying to hit
00:13:48 that target he’s trying to teach us
00:13:50 something each time he gives
00:13:52 instruction right and to go along with
00:13:55 that
00:13:55 i mean we talked about how torah means
00:13:58 instructions
00:13:59 commandments right but when we look at
00:14:02 statements from
00:14:03 paul and jesus uh
00:14:06 torah is more than just the first five
00:14:08 books of moses which is generally
00:14:09 accepted as that
00:14:10 but um
00:14:15 it’s been a little while so i may get
00:14:17 this a little wrong but paul
00:14:18 or jesus said that the rest of the
00:14:21 tanakh was torah
00:14:23 or psalms jesus or paul
00:14:26 said the prophets
00:14:29 were torah and the other ones that the
00:14:32 teachings
00:14:34 were torah because there’s three parts
00:14:36 to to the tanakh or the old testament
00:14:39 torah yeah prophet and the writings of
00:14:41 the prophets writings
00:14:43 right yeah um and so i forget which one
00:14:46 was which i’d have to go find it again
00:14:48 but jesus said one was
00:14:50 uh torah and paul said the other one’s
00:14:52 source so all three parts are torah
00:14:55 yeah exactly and it’s just all
00:14:57 instruction exactly but we
00:14:59 we see it in the book of mormon too and
00:15:01 in the dnc right
00:15:02 exact instructions but then but then
00:15:05 sometimes it does delimit
00:15:07 or i just separate the difference where
00:15:10 you have the writings of the prophets
00:15:12 and the law
00:15:13 you know is another way but essentially
00:15:15 i would say that what you’re saying
00:15:17 it fits my paradigm where it’s just all
00:15:20 instruction trying to get us to a target
00:15:22 correct okay right and so specifically
00:15:26 when god gives instruction
00:15:29 well and actually i want to add one more
00:15:30 thing is i think it’s really
00:15:32 important to not talk bad
00:15:35 even though we might not understand
00:15:38 instruction and i think
00:15:40 commonly in regular christendom and even
00:15:43 we’ve inherited this as
00:15:44 lds people we talk badly about the old
00:15:47 testament
00:15:48 and i think it’s largely because we
00:15:50 don’t understand it
00:15:51 we don’t recognize the pattern growing
00:15:54 up in it
00:15:55 like they said oh you don’t need that
00:15:56 anymore and most christians think oh
00:15:59 they’re he’s so evil and wicked in the
00:16:01 old testament
00:16:03 they just don’t understand it i will
00:16:05 admit even
00:16:07 me who spends a bit of time trying to
00:16:10 understand it there’s things in it i
00:16:11 still don’t understand
00:16:13 because we’re removed from the culture
00:16:15 we don’t know the idioms
00:16:17 so on and so forth there there’s a lot i
00:16:20 mean
00:16:21 i married an argentine wife who speaks
00:16:24 spanish
00:16:24 uh not every thing is a one-to-one
00:16:28 translation yeah translation
00:16:31 is a big deal i mean
00:16:35 when you say something one word has
00:16:38 multiple meanings and depending how
00:16:40 articulate a writer is he could have all
00:16:42 those meanings
00:16:44 in mind at the same time and then try to
00:16:46 find another word
00:16:47 in another language it has those all
00:16:49 those same meanings to it
00:16:51 is practically impossible and the hebrew
00:16:54 prophets
00:16:55 they specially language yeah exactly
00:16:58 especially all their little jokes that
00:17:00 they did or word plays that they did all
00:17:02 the time you can’t catch that in english
00:17:04 but anyways
00:17:05 translation is a difficult business
00:17:09 absolutely all right so
00:17:12 essentially i’m trying to explore the
00:17:14 idea
00:17:16 that when god gives instruction it
00:17:18 essentially ties to the word torah
00:17:21 and the instruction is trying to teach
00:17:22 us something
00:17:24 and so with the jews
00:17:27 with their culture they took what they
00:17:30 were given
00:17:31 and they essentially didn’t understand
00:17:33 it
00:17:34 and that sounds really arrogant but i’m
00:17:38 just going
00:17:38 so i think there was a time they did
00:17:40 understand it but then
00:17:42 um they went to babylon and the elders
00:17:46 uh decided they liked babylon a lot more
00:17:49 than
00:17:50 torah and that’s around the time that
00:17:54 the oral traditions got started
00:17:58 i i don’t know how much you know about
00:17:59 the talmud or the oral law
00:18:01 and stuff like that but they they claim
00:18:03 that uh moses got the oral law
00:18:05 and that’s how they’re doing all this
00:18:07 stuff but it’s completely
00:18:08 not true we could look at some examples
00:18:10 i’d have to go look them up because i
00:18:12 don’t have it memorized
00:18:13 but well but then there’s the case you
00:18:15 mean real
00:18:16 nuggets of gold in the world
00:18:19 like there are some things from there
00:18:21 and it’s just it’s amazing
00:18:23 i thought that the oral tradition was
00:18:25 called the church handbook of
00:18:26 instructions
00:18:28 that’s what it is in the earliest church
00:18:30 in the jewish church they call it the
00:18:32 oral law
00:18:33 or the talent no no it’s the conference
00:18:34 oh okay
00:18:38 same concept
00:18:43 okay so we’re playing out the same
00:18:45 pattern though okay
00:18:46 but actually so back up so my point on
00:18:50 the ordinances though
00:18:51 is it became about the ordinance it
00:18:53 didn’t become about the lesson
00:18:55 they were really focused on what they
00:18:56 were doing how they were doing it
00:18:58 sprinkled the blood perfectly this way
00:19:00 and they lost what
00:19:01 god was trying to instruct them with the
00:19:04 instruction right but then they didn’t
00:19:05 even do it correctly
00:19:06 also because they told them
00:19:10 they focused on the wrong thing i mean a
00:19:13 lot of people like to say oh
00:19:14 as the new testament god said focus on
00:19:16 the heart
00:19:18 that’s not true for one it’s in psalms
00:19:21 and for another nephi said it and it’s
00:19:24 actually in torah
00:19:25 i mean deuteronomy
00:19:28 says there’s a curse if you do it but
00:19:31 you don’t want to do it
00:19:32 just like moroni 7 says it’s
00:19:35 it’s always been about the heart it’s
00:19:37 just these people who don’t
00:19:39 study they don’t they they get this
00:19:41 catch phrase they get from someone else
00:19:43 to try to make
00:19:44 something of god look bad and they grab
00:19:46 on to it because they don’t know what
00:19:47 they’re
00:19:48 talking about exactly no exactly and um
00:19:52 i would say that well you make a great
00:19:55 point i
00:19:56 just want to move forward from that the
00:19:58 uh so with the jews
00:20:00 they they they get some instruction
00:20:03 and then they don’t they didn’t
00:20:05 understand it to a large degree
00:20:07 they changed it they added to it
00:20:11 and then they they essentially missed it
00:20:14 when
00:20:14 jesus was standing right in front of him
00:20:16 all right now
00:20:17 in fact i would even add to that um
00:20:21 they had their false traditions which
00:20:22 christ chewed them out for
00:20:24 but the things that are the daily
00:20:28 performances and ordinances were so
00:20:30 specific
00:20:33 that in fact i don’t remember where it
00:20:35 is but
00:20:36 i believe in the new testament it brings
00:20:38 out how that
00:20:39 they’re condemned for missing him
00:20:41 because they were given
00:20:42 so much in those and what they
00:20:46 in you know torah and law moses that
00:20:48 pointed to him
00:20:50 that they’re held accountable for not
00:20:53 recognizing him just like we are going
00:20:55 to be held accountable
00:20:57 for not recognizing um the signs of the
00:21:00 second coming and whatnot right so
00:21:02 we’re in the same boat but
00:21:05 the point where even the the day he went
00:21:09 into jerusalem was the 10th that was the
00:21:12 day
00:21:13 the lambs were supposed to get judged
00:21:17 yeah and exactly the palms everybody
00:21:19 accepted them
00:21:20 anyways point by point on on the feast
00:21:24 on the
00:21:25 spring face and also even just the um
00:21:29 do their performance and ordinances
00:21:31 point to christ and what he did
00:21:33 absolutely and so my point is those
00:21:36 ordinances were trying to teach them
00:21:38 lessons
00:21:39 and they if if they weren’t looking to
00:21:41 the lessons that god was trying to
00:21:43 instruct
00:21:44 them with to help them get to the target
00:21:46 that was
00:21:47 really unfortunate miss on that
00:21:50 though the i would say the high holidays
00:21:52 are still teaching us
00:21:53 though it could absolutely no no i i
00:21:56 think that even what he gave them then
00:21:58 can still teach us now a hundred percent
00:22:00 oh yeah completely
00:22:01 um in fact the new testament talks about
00:22:04 the stories i i’m i i need to do a post
00:22:07 on this but
00:22:08 the golden calf i see is a prophecy
00:22:10 that’s filling for being fulfilled today
00:22:13 it’s history and prophecy the the
00:22:16 prophets use history as
00:22:19 prophecy and i kind of bring that out in
00:22:22 verses from the book of mormon and i
00:22:23 don’t know if you’ve read my king
00:22:24 brigham post
00:22:28 um if not you might like it if nothing
00:22:31 else just read the first paragraph where
00:22:33 i give
00:22:33 verses in the book of mormon that teach
00:22:35 that concept that
00:22:39 the prophets use history as prophecy
00:22:43 okay yeah totally yeah and the
00:22:46 the other idea is essentially prophecy
00:22:50 is understanding what’s happened helps
00:22:52 you understand what’s happening
00:22:54 now and it helps you understand what
00:22:55 will happen in the future right
00:22:57 today yeah exactly and we have to
00:23:01 in some way live these patterns out even
00:23:03 within our own life
00:23:04 even if it’s not some grander picture
00:23:06 but those are clearly
00:23:08 part of it so with that in fact go along
00:23:11 with that
00:23:11 um as
00:23:15 hellenists like us we grew up
00:23:16 hellenistic
00:23:19 we think linearly hebrews
00:23:22 think yes cycles just like the moon
00:23:26 it’s a cycle it goes through and that’s
00:23:28 how they see that and that’s how the
00:23:30 you know history plays out well and
00:23:32 that’s exactly what i’m talking about
00:23:34 we’re talking about a cycle god does
00:23:37 some
00:23:38 some work establishes law and then what
00:23:41 happens after that
00:23:42 and so to the to my point with the
00:23:45 temple
00:23:46 i believe the temple is a big
00:23:48 instruction manual
00:23:50 about what’s what’s happening to us and
00:23:53 what will happen
00:23:54 and in that i think where um
00:23:57 the wording used that god will place
00:24:01 cherubim and a flaming sword
00:24:03 to guard the way to the pet to the tree
00:24:05 of life
00:24:07 is a specific warning
00:24:10 so um i i don’t believe in the elder’s
00:24:12 temple
00:24:13 um but let’s let’s look at this that
00:24:16 statement right there real quick on the
00:24:18 the cherubim and the flaming
00:24:21 sword uh i believe the flaming sword
00:24:25 is the gift of the it’s the baptism fire
00:24:28 and the gift of the holy ghost
00:24:29 perfect good so what’s cherubim
00:24:33 uh probably the priesthood holders
00:24:36 i’m not really sure on that one and
00:24:38 tying it to that okay because what i
00:24:39 would say
00:24:40 so we don’t need to talk about it in the
00:24:41 temple context so this is just
00:24:43 scriptural
00:24:44 okay so cherubim flaming sword is placed
00:24:46 to guard the way
00:24:47 now cherubim if you look at it kind of
00:24:50 like a word titan
00:24:51 it ties in to to me to to be the ark of
00:24:54 the covenant
00:24:55 okay that’s the most significant place
00:24:57 where cherubim’s place
00:24:59 to to you know sure in fact the
00:25:04 the tabernacle is a mirror image
00:25:07 of the garden of eden exactly yeah
00:25:11 yeah okay
00:25:15 just before the holy place yes
00:25:18 okay so i mean you want to go into more
00:25:22 than that the the
00:25:23 the tabernacle matches our our face
00:25:27 okay we’ll have to this is where we’re
00:25:29 supposed to have the commandments
00:25:31 oh yeah yeah yeah anyways you could go
00:25:34 all parts of the face and when you get
00:25:35 to the temple it even matches
00:25:37 our physical bodies but yeah i’m
00:25:40 totally cool with that so my suggestion
00:25:44 is that the cherubim and the the
00:25:47 cherubim part of the
00:25:49 of the two and actually i’ll use your
00:25:50 face uh analogy
00:25:52 essentially in our bodies there’s this
00:25:54 duality it everything is in twos
00:25:57 and when something’s out of whack we
00:26:00 lack depth perception
00:26:01 you know if my heart if one half of my
00:26:04 heart’s not working i’m dead
00:26:06 if one half of my brain’s not working
00:26:07 i’m crazy like it
00:26:09 it takes the two okay and so
00:26:12 i think that god you know in that the
00:26:15 living instruction of life
00:26:17 is teaching us this same pattern of the
00:26:19 importance of these two
00:26:20 so cherubim and a flaming sword to guard
00:26:23 the way
00:26:24 to the tree another way that i like to
00:26:27 illustrate what i
00:26:28 i believe where so taiyan cherubim
00:26:30 cherubim
00:26:31 is over the ark of the covenant which
00:26:33 contains the law specifically five books
00:26:35 of moses okay
00:26:37 now five books of moses and the
00:26:39 importance of that
00:26:40 in guarding the way so fast forward the
00:26:43 other way to illustrate this
00:26:45 this idea and the concept of the duality
00:26:47 of those two
00:26:48 is the liahona you have two spindles
00:26:52 one of them points constant which is to
00:26:54 the north
00:26:55 and the other one points the specific
00:26:57 way like hey where’s the deal
00:27:00 where do you get the verse where do you
00:27:02 get that the
00:27:03 that one spindle is always uh pointing
00:27:06 north oh sure so let’s let’s find a
00:27:09 little bit
00:27:09 just um
00:27:13 hey stephen real quick sir
00:27:16 uh so you say you don’t believe in the
00:27:17 mormon temple can i just
00:27:19 will you just give me a quick i know you
00:27:22 threw online but that’s
00:27:23 it i don’t know your background oh sure
00:27:26 um
00:27:27 you probably missed it a little bit i i
00:27:28 grew up lds i served
00:27:31 at new york utica commission uh 99-01
00:27:35 okay at the same time as me i was in
00:27:37 south carolina 99-01
00:27:40 toronto to 2002. oh
00:27:44 that i was on my mission when 9 11
00:27:46 happened
00:27:47 and my companion was glued to the tv
00:27:50 where i was some i i wanted to go out
00:27:53 and do work
00:27:53 right that was a great opportunity to
00:27:55 preach but
00:27:56 he wanted to be glued to the tv because
00:27:59 he was worried about
00:28:00 but i wasn’t in the city i was in
00:28:02 upstate so i was
00:28:03 but with it still being upstate new york
00:28:05 it still affected a lot of the people
00:28:07 and where i was oh yeah yeah right
00:28:09 because the commute
00:28:10 i i mean the city loses so much uh
00:28:13 population on the weekend
00:28:14 because they go back home after for the
00:28:17 weekend
00:28:19 right so you came home
00:28:22 uh and
00:28:25 obviously you’re are you at like do you
00:28:27 go to church anymore or like what oh
00:28:29 here i i
00:28:30 i was i didn’t see anything wrong until
00:28:33 i
00:28:33 woke up really okay let me really
00:28:36 clarify that
00:28:37 i didn’t see anything wrong with the top
00:28:38 leaders i i saw some problems
00:28:40 locally but i’m like you’re just making
00:28:42 mistakes you know
00:28:44 they’re doing the best they can it was
00:28:46 in 2014 that i realized that
00:28:49 the problems are at the top
00:28:52 yeah um yeah a lot of that
00:28:56 came about because i
00:29:00 wanted more information i tried to get
00:29:02 it through the proper channels
00:29:04 like to my bishop home teacher my home
00:29:07 teacher actually made
00:29:08 fun of me because of it and told me i
00:29:10 didn’t believe in christ
00:29:12 um i give you i wrote about it once
00:29:15 i can give it to you if you want um
00:29:20 um but then then i started going online
00:29:24 um because i wasn’t getting it
00:29:27 and so i went to elders facebook groups
00:29:29 and i started seeing how
00:29:31 people lds people are quaint quoting
00:29:33 different
00:29:35 general authorities and they’re all
00:29:36 contradicting each other and like that
00:29:38 makes sense i i i probably grew up to
00:29:41 some degree in a bubble
00:29:42 i believe but i didn’t really pay
00:29:44 attention to the leaders i cared more
00:29:45 about the scriptures
00:29:47 um yeah i mean after my mission i i
00:29:50 i bought farms articles and read them
00:29:53 like candy or
00:29:54 ate them like candy because i loved it i
00:29:56 i wanted to know what the scripture said
00:29:57 now i disagree with him a lot now
00:29:59 right obviously um but at the time i
00:30:02 thought it was great
00:30:03 that’s what i wanted to spend my extra
00:30:05 time on and money yeah
00:30:07 it’s important to me but anyways but in
00:30:10 the process
00:30:11 and going on facebook i met some friends
00:30:15 who had questions and
00:30:19 i and what is it j reuben clark has a
00:30:20 quote you know of about
00:30:23 uh if you have the truth you don’t have
00:30:24 to what
00:30:26 you have to worry about being harvard
00:30:28 and investigating or something like that
00:30:29 and
00:30:30 i i thought i could help him right
00:30:33 yeah ended up said me trying to help
00:30:36 them is what woke me up because i
00:30:38 learned a lot of stuff
00:30:39 i didn’t know beforehand and i am
00:30:42 grateful for it cool
00:30:46 i was just gonna say i’m just curious
00:30:49 like if i
00:30:50 if i post scriptures and stuff from the
00:30:52 book of mormon i just wanted to make
00:30:54 sure
00:30:54 that was something you knew about i i
00:30:58 i mean i love the book of mormon
00:31:01 okay good so i gathered as much i guess
00:31:04 online but um
00:31:08 so in fact here here’s a good post for
00:31:10 you
00:31:11 if you want i i talk about how
00:31:14 the book of mormon’s my base um
00:31:19 and i get into some details i i focus
00:31:22 primarily on book of mormon and torah
00:31:25 okay what were you going to say mike is
00:31:28 that what now
00:31:29 actually it’s kind of a distraction i’m
00:31:31 actually just going to circle back
00:31:34 and uh let’s kind of move forward i
00:31:36 don’t have a ton of time
00:31:38 i was just going to say real quick i
00:31:40 just posted those scriptures
00:31:42 in alma in the chat
00:31:46 i think this is what the cherubim
00:31:48 cherubim represent
00:31:49 in the flaming sword yeah tell me what
00:31:51 your thoughts are chad go ahead
00:31:53 i think it represents um angels that
00:31:55 we’re supposed to
00:31:57 so it says therefore he sent angels to
00:32:00 converse with them
00:32:01 who cause men to behold his glory so
00:32:03 like the aaronic priesthood has the keys
00:32:05 to the ministering of angels
00:32:06 that’s really all you need in order to
00:32:09 like initiate
00:32:10 the beginning you know in the mormon
00:32:13 temple
00:32:14 ceremony the it was initially
00:32:17 not peter james and john it was supposed
00:32:20 to be two unnamed angels
00:32:22 but the two unnamed angels would come
00:32:24 without revealing their identity
00:32:25 to test those to see if they were
00:32:28 keeping
00:32:29 the things uh to see if they were doing
00:32:34 whatsoever the lord had commanded them
00:32:36 so they come
00:32:37 unnamed like maybe john the beloved
00:32:41 right um or the three nephites who are
00:32:44 among us
00:32:45 to test to see if the adam and eve
00:32:48 are keeping so anyway my point is
00:32:52 you know and like um moroni says
00:32:56 you know if if if angels are not
00:32:59 if we’re not entertaining angels that
00:33:01 means we don’t have faith
00:33:03 so i think that they that’s what i think
00:33:06 it is is they are guarding the way
00:33:09 right which is christ um
00:33:13 and they are to prepare us
00:33:16 in order to have an audience with christ
00:33:20 so you have your celestial
00:33:24 which is the angels your terrestrial
00:33:26 which represents christ and then
00:33:27 celestial
00:33:28 he will then take you to the father
00:33:29 right yeah so
00:33:31 anyway i think that’s what the cherubim
00:33:33 represent are
00:33:35 so i think i’m close i think
00:33:38 so if the flaming sword has to do with
00:33:42 the baptism in the holy ghost as i
00:33:43 believe it does
00:33:45 uh what has to happen before that is you
00:33:48 have to be baptized
00:33:50 by someone having authority and so i
00:33:52 think
00:33:53 it’s the priesthood holder because when
00:33:56 you’re baptized with someone in
00:33:57 authority
00:33:58 and you’ve really repented what happens
00:34:01 next
00:34:04 it bounces in the fire and the holy
00:34:05 ghost
00:34:07 that’s incredible i believe the the
00:34:09 flaming sword
00:34:11 well and so i would point to the pattern
00:34:13 of that
00:34:14 is supported by the exodus journey you
00:34:17 know the red sea
00:34:19 is symbolizing the water baptism and
00:34:21 then the journey to
00:34:22 mount sinai is preparing us for the
00:34:24 baptism by fire
00:34:26 church i don’t know the verse but paul
00:34:29 talks about how
00:34:30 the you know going through the red sea
00:34:31 is symbolic of baptism yeah exactly
00:34:34 yeah exactly yep you get it so
00:34:37 so so to chad’s point i think that it’s
00:34:40 related chad i think you’re correct
00:34:42 but i would say that that’s actually
00:34:44 illustrated differently and it’s
00:34:45 illustrating a different point you
00:34:47 actually are
00:34:47 addressing the different point but the
00:34:50 the
00:34:51 the the type and shadow and we’ll just
00:34:53 go with bible for you guys
00:34:54 is i think the type and shadow that the
00:34:56 bible uses
00:34:58 of cherubim and a flaming sword to guard
00:35:00 the way
00:35:01 is really important because it’s
00:35:03 specifically guarding the way
00:35:04 like how are we supposed to know that we
00:35:06 don’t have a deceiving spirit
00:35:08 that is trying to purposely take us off
00:35:11 the way
00:35:12 and it’s because we have this other
00:35:13 thing that’s guarding the way
00:35:15 and that’s where i’m saying that the two
00:35:17 ideas is actually supported with the
00:35:20 two spindles and where you go is first
00:35:22 nephi 16 verse 10.
00:35:24 wait let me go first 35 16
00:35:27 10. yep
00:35:31 and i know the basic symbolism behind
00:35:34 the liahona but it’s not something i’ve
00:35:36 studied a lot but it came to pass that
00:35:38 my father rose in the morning he went
00:35:39 forth to the tent door and his great
00:35:40 response to behold upon the ground a
00:35:42 ball curious working
00:35:43 with spine brass within the ball was two
00:35:46 spindles right okay
00:35:48 and one pointed the way wither we should
00:35:51 go into the wilderness
00:35:53 um but i think at other times it’s it
00:35:56 only pointed that way as they heeded the
00:35:58 commandments of god i don’t think it’s
00:36:00 right here though which
00:36:01 well no i think that’s an alma yeah but
00:36:04 that
00:36:04 is the tie into the spirit that you were
00:36:06 talking about with the flaming sword
00:36:09 sure um i mean this would even i don’t
00:36:12 know
00:36:12 this getting us off point maybe too much
00:36:15 but
00:36:15 i mean even what the holy ghost is and
00:36:17 could be an interesting
00:36:19 discussion in itself yeah and i think
00:36:22 that that’s all kind of under the
00:36:23 umbrella of the spirit
00:36:25 and just for sake of kind of moving
00:36:27 forward yeah so depending on tox
00:36:29 context um spirit is the holy
00:36:32 spirit or holy ghost the holy ghost and
00:36:35 holy spirit
00:36:36 you know it’s that word picture yeah
00:36:39 exactly
00:36:40 yeah i was gonna say too though it could
00:36:43 also represent
00:36:44 um the word of god right that was a
00:36:47 sharp
00:36:48 two-edged sword so since you brought it
00:36:51 up i’ll tell you what my belief of the
00:36:53 holy ghost
00:36:54 or holy spirit is it’s the word the way
00:36:58 um the plan the way of being
00:37:02 it’s not a person yeah i don’t i don’t
00:37:05 believe it
00:37:07 i believe yeah i don’t believe it’s a
00:37:10 i i the holy spirit i don’t believe is a
00:37:12 personage either
00:37:14 yeah in my holy spirit holy ghost
00:37:17 uh post i gave a link to at the bottom
00:37:20 i have an index of 16
00:37:24 um subjects that the holy ghost and holy
00:37:27 spirit overlap on showing that they’re
00:37:29 same
00:37:29 one of them is it and the book of mormon
00:37:33 multiple times refers to the holy ghost
00:37:36 and holy spirit as in
00:37:37 it and my favorite one on this i’m
00:37:40 pulling this off point probably is
00:37:42 moroni 7
00:37:43 2 and we can read it but it refers to
00:37:47 the holy
00:37:48 spirit as the holy will which matches
00:37:52 uh lectures on faith 5 verse 2 which
00:37:56 talks about how the holy spirit is the
00:37:58 mind of god
00:37:59 why did it all go together yeah lectures
00:38:02 on faith which joseph wrote
00:38:06 says specifically that it is not a
00:38:07 personage oh correct
00:38:09 yeah in fact question two it says how
00:38:12 many persons are there in the godhead
00:38:14 two the father yeah
00:38:17 yeah see and that’s where i believe so
00:38:20 my thoughts on that
00:38:21 are um because then you get into the
00:38:24 other section where it says the father
00:38:26 and
00:38:26 you know father and son thirties not a
00:38:29 revelation yeah
00:38:30 and it was the two recorders from that
00:38:33 talk
00:38:34 contradict each other on that point well
00:38:37 and
00:38:37 here’s the thing too right you could go
00:38:39 into that but i would just say in short
00:38:42 nowhere does section 130 say godhead
00:38:46 so it could be talk to me it’s talking
00:38:48 about something different
00:38:50 uh i can see your point there but i i
00:38:53 i i reject dnc 130.
00:38:56 the recorders that talk um don’t
00:39:00 match each other and there’s other
00:39:01 issues in that section that uh
00:39:03 i believe contradict the book of mormon
00:39:05 so i i just
00:39:06 i don’t take that section don’t hold it
00:39:10 don’t hold a lot of weight to it and i
00:39:12 think that’s fine
00:39:13 i haven’t gone back and looked at it i
00:39:15 know there’s a lot of problems with it
00:39:16 last time i looked at that was like
00:39:17 three years ago so
00:39:19 um sure there’s a few sections i know i
00:39:23 don’t accept
00:39:24 um but anyways we’re getting off track
00:39:26 yeah we’re good
00:39:27 so let me let me just see if i can get
00:39:29 agreement on this though
00:39:30 the holy spirit um holy ghost the holy
00:39:33 spirit is essentially
00:39:35 the power that we receive direction
00:39:39 and it gives you yes directions it’s the
00:39:41 instructions in fact
00:39:43 you want to bring in power the the book
00:39:45 of mormon brings out how god’s power
00:39:48 is the holy ghost yeah and that’s the
00:39:51 specific thing
00:39:52 guiding you individually for the
00:39:54 individual question that you face
00:39:56 right and then i’ll add to this when we
00:40:00 keep god’s way that’s when we receive
00:40:03 power
00:40:04 yeah i totally agree i have examples
00:40:07 from the book of mormon it shows
00:40:08 when people were sinless meaning keeping
00:40:11 the way
00:40:12 yeah they had power yeah
00:40:16 i’m totally cool with that so but then
00:40:19 the other side of the unchanging that’s
00:40:21 the one that i want to discuss
00:40:23 okay so the unchanging it’s they
00:40:26 obviously knew the direction of north
00:40:28 south east and west
00:40:29 as they describe their direction and
00:40:31 their journey my suggestion is that
00:40:33 other spindle is just simply a compass
00:40:36 spindle pointing north
00:40:38 and it’s do you have an actual verse
00:40:39 that says that or is that just your
00:40:41 there is something i can’t remember
00:40:42 exactly where but i’m just saying just
00:40:45 explore that thought but also i would
00:40:47 add they knew the direction the whole
00:40:49 time as far as what direction was north
00:40:51 south east and so the
00:40:54 second spindle of the leona wasn’t just
00:40:59 getting idle because it’s a spindle it’s
00:41:01 spinning
00:41:02 if you study astronomy there’s other
00:41:05 ways to know
00:41:06 north other than a compass like we
00:41:09 you’re crazy so and actually that’s
00:41:13 another example of an unchanging
00:41:16 constant
00:41:17 that god gives us is the north star
00:41:20 it’s unchanging there’s this unchanging
00:41:22 nature
00:41:24 in either side it’s a little bit it’s
00:41:26 pretty close to not changing
00:41:28 but um that’s a whole you follow what
00:41:32 i’m saying
00:41:32 but yeah you’re good i i kind of see
00:41:35 your point and i think you’re
00:41:36 it sounds like you’re extrapolating that
00:41:39 that second spindle was always pointing
00:41:41 north
00:41:41 you don’t actually have a brush that
00:41:43 says that and that’s fine
00:41:45 yeah and so i i think there actually is
00:41:47 but i’d like to say i just did a quick
00:41:49 search
00:41:50 if you find it i’d be interested because
00:41:52 that’s something i wanted to learn more
00:41:54 about
00:41:55 okay so then stick with the cherubim
00:41:57 side but
00:41:58 cherubim and like i say i’m using the
00:42:00 same word picture for both
00:42:02 of these and so we have the spirit on
00:42:04 one half
00:42:05 individually pointing and the other half
00:42:08 is
00:42:09 an unchanging and then specifically
00:42:11 pointing to the five books of moses
00:42:13 contained in the ark of the covenant
00:42:15 okay so my my thought is the ark of the
00:42:18 covenant
00:42:19 and the five books of moses is the other
00:42:22 thing
00:42:23 that is meant to stay constant and
00:42:26 unchanging and
00:42:27 has never been corrupted to help us to
00:42:30 guide on our way
00:42:31 all right so that’s where i would 65 13
00:42:35 25 well first nephi 13
00:42:38 25 uh i i would also just to add to that
00:42:41 thought real quick i think
00:42:43 i’d have to go look it up but i think
00:42:44 it’s alma 37
00:42:46 or in that range that it has a prophecy
00:42:49 that we’re going to get the brass place
00:42:50 the vast place has
00:42:52 is basically the tanakh right up through
00:42:54 at least part of jeremiah
00:42:56 i’ve seen parts of the book of mormon
00:42:58 where
00:43:00 i’d have to go see if i made notes on
00:43:03 where it’s at but there’s parts in it
00:43:05 that i think it shows they didn’t have
00:43:06 all of jeremiah just the way
00:43:08 they talk about some specific things
00:43:10 like how long the
00:43:12 city in jerusalem and whatnot um
00:43:15 so i think they only had part of it uh i
00:43:18 i think they actually
00:43:19 you you said something very fascinating
00:43:21 where you said that you believe that
00:43:24 the instruction didn’t contain
00:43:26 necessarily the entire five books
00:43:28 okay uh no i maybe that came out wrong
00:43:32 uh i do believe it has the tanakh it
00:43:34 doesn’t have
00:43:35 all of the three moses pre-moses sorry
00:43:37 you were talking about the pre-moses
00:43:38 thing uh
00:43:40 no i said pre-jeremiah um
00:43:43 so if it came out that way my my my head
00:43:47 and mouth weren’t working with each
00:43:48 other now you’re good it was it was what
00:43:50 we were discussing earlier but it’s fine
00:43:55 about the um the difference between
00:43:58 torah and law and moses
00:43:59 is that where you’re going okay
00:44:02 um so but anyways back to the brass
00:44:05 plates i
00:44:06 it has it’s basically canuck and it
00:44:08 includes torah
00:44:10 and i think it’s alma 37 that has a
00:44:12 prophecy that we will be
00:44:13 getting that it’s going to be translated
00:44:15 we’re going to have it and it
00:44:16 also says though in there it’s small
00:44:20 things that bring people
00:44:21 to righteousness it’s talking about
00:44:23 torah it also thinks about
00:44:25 how uh without the torah or the brass
00:44:28 plates
00:44:30 basically the tornado testament they
00:44:32 wouldn’t have been able to bring
00:44:35 the lamanites to repentance
00:44:39 meaning and and also giving the
00:44:42 look or feeling that it’s going to
00:44:44 happen again
00:44:47 to go along with your thought about how
00:44:49 it’s going to help
00:44:50 people bring back i believe i think it’s
00:44:52 almost 37
00:44:54 we could check that has a prophecy on
00:44:56 that and it says that
00:44:57 it’s that same basic idea that you’re
00:44:59 bringing up okay
00:45:01 you’re good i think we’re actually more
00:45:03 on the same page than i was thinking so
00:45:05 that like i say my contention is in
00:45:07 verse 25 because there’s lots of people
00:45:09 that talk about the corruption from the
00:45:10 deuteronomists
00:45:12 and i don’t believe that’s possible
00:45:14 because
00:45:15 this was my thought on the corruption
00:45:17 that says from the deuteronomus
00:45:19 okay it’s first nephi 13 verse 25
00:45:23 and it says wherefore
00:45:26 these things go forth from the jews in
00:45:29 purity
00:45:30 unto the gentiles according to the truth
00:45:32 which is in god
00:45:33 yeah i i don’t believe the
00:45:35 deuteronomists or
00:45:37 theory um myself
00:45:40 and on top of that the dior or true
00:45:44 isaiah i don’t believe also and we can
00:45:46 use book of mormon and new testament
00:45:48 verses
00:45:48 so that if you believe these texts you
00:45:52 can’t you shouldn’t i guess you could
00:45:54 but you shouldn’t believe in the do or
00:45:56 true uh isaiah i i don’t know
00:45:59 isaiah i don’t sorry i’m lost on that
00:46:01 point sorry myth oh
00:46:03 uh some people can believe that multiple
00:46:05 authors
00:46:06 right so yeah like the last the
00:46:09 first because isaiah prophesied things
00:46:12 just so
00:46:13 accurately people who don’t believe in
00:46:15 prophecy
00:46:17 uh don’t believe isaiah wrote those
00:46:21 other chapters perfect and so either
00:46:23 there’s two theories that there were two
00:46:25 authors or three authors
00:46:26 and i don’t believe that and um i think
00:46:29 it’s in john
00:46:31 somewhere i’d have to go look up the
00:46:32 reference i can if you want
00:46:34 but in john in 2nd 85 25 it brings out
00:46:37 how it’s
00:46:37 one singular he not they
00:46:41 um also people try to use that to
00:46:43 disprove the book of mormon
00:46:44 but that’s some of the isaiah issues is
00:46:47 another subject
00:46:48 because no and but the point is is they
00:46:52 went from the jews
00:46:53 in purity and then the corruption came
00:46:56 from the gentiles
00:46:58 and so anything that was in the jews
00:47:01 hands at the time that it went to christ
00:47:03 is valid and then the other thing that
00:47:06 happened though
00:47:07 is for there to be a corruption in the
00:47:09 bible that’s both corrupt on the jews
00:47:11 side and the christian side
00:47:13 would have taken a collaboration between
00:47:16 bigger enemies that i don’t think is
00:47:18 logical logically possible
00:47:21 i do think i think a class a clarifier
00:47:25 after christ because you know
00:47:26 in the new testament they talk about
00:47:28 problems you know arguing with
00:47:29 genealogies
00:47:31 and i have a video on this i can i’ll
00:47:33 give you guys
00:47:34 um sure that talks about
00:47:38 how it gets into these genealogies and
00:47:40 how the
00:47:41 the jews change some of these
00:47:43 genealogies
00:47:45 um to make it so that people could not
00:47:47 prove that jesus
00:47:48 yeshua is the promised messiah um
00:47:52 so i i generally agree with you there’s
00:47:55 maybe a few little
00:47:56 tidbits here they may see a slightly
00:47:59 different
00:47:59 but overall i completely agree
00:48:03 the genetology’s discrepancy that i’ve
00:48:06 i’ve heard that’s fascinating is that
00:48:09 essentially the two different books in
00:48:11 the new testament that are describing
00:48:12 genealogies are actually describing as
00:48:14 fathers
00:48:15 earthly fathers genealogy and then the
00:48:17 other is just mothers
00:48:19 oh so that has to do with christ’s
00:48:21 genealogy
00:48:22 uh more specifically and this is not
00:48:25 necessarily
00:48:25 that um other parts but yes in fact
00:48:29 if uh there’s a series going out right
00:48:32 now
00:48:32 on the hebrew matthew and
00:48:36 uh nehemiah i don’t know if you know who
00:48:38 he is
00:48:39 totally he found uh because it’s been
00:48:43 speculative that one was on the mother
00:48:45 and one was on the father uh but
00:48:48 nehemiah found
00:48:49 some um
00:48:52 scrolls artifacts that actually say
00:48:56 uh joseph the father of
00:48:59 miriam right more accurately well that’s
00:49:02 that’s actually fascinating because
00:49:07 we’ll go ahead and restate that so
00:49:10 the genealogies i think it’s matthew and
00:49:13 luke if i remember
00:49:14 correctly there’s some issues with the
00:49:16 genealogies
00:49:17 uh and one of the theories that have
00:49:20 been proposed for
00:49:21 hundreds and thousands of years to help
00:49:26 um get rid of this issue right
00:49:29 is that uh one genealogy
00:49:33 is of his mother
00:49:36 and the other one of his father
00:49:42 um
00:49:44 and nehemiah has found um
00:49:47 parchments that show it’s joseph
00:49:52 uh father of miriam or mary
00:49:56 right depending on how you want to
00:49:57 translate mary’s
00:49:59 name okay
00:50:03 and so it just shows that one of the
00:50:05 theories that
00:50:07 have been contemplated since the first
00:50:11 century
00:50:11 actually has some great it’s pretty much
00:50:14 true
00:50:15 but anyways
00:50:19 there’s somewhere in the book of mormon
00:50:20 that talks about there being records
00:50:22 found that prove
00:50:23 the records yes that’s going to be
00:50:27 second nephi 29 i believe um okay
00:50:31 can we go there i want to find that real
00:50:32 quick what’s the key word i’m trying to
00:50:35 remember how it goes
00:50:36 um i’m pretty sure it’s technique by 29
00:50:39 just because
00:50:40 of the content of that chapter um what’s
00:50:43 that
00:50:43 wording i’m trying to think of it
00:50:46 how do you prove i’m saying oh
00:50:50 prove that’s a good one thank you well
00:50:58 because this is fascinating uh
00:51:01 if oh in fact i’m trying to so
00:51:07 i i just listened to hebrew gospel
00:51:10 5 plus today
00:51:14 so you know how um the book of mormon
00:51:17 gets
00:51:17 slack because it names jesus before his
00:51:20 birth right
00:51:22 yeah so nehemiah gordon doesn’t use
00:51:25 hebrew
00:51:27 and i’m sorry that one just drives me
00:51:30 nuts on that criticism keep going
00:51:32 yeah anyways nahemia gordon in
00:51:36 hebrew matthew 5 plus
00:51:39 brings out how
00:51:42 the tanakh actually does
00:51:46 say yahshua as a prophecy
00:51:49 wow and it’s in the tanakh
00:51:53 and that so
00:51:57 to me i’m trying to get permission to
00:51:58 share that one because that when you’re
00:51:59 supposed to
00:52:00 uh be a subscriber to get um oh bummer
00:52:04 yeah yeah i get that good because
00:52:06 that’s big for us who believe in the
00:52:07 book of mormon right
00:52:10 yeah and this is from a cara he doesn’t
00:52:12 even believe in
00:52:13 jesus as the promised messiah he
00:52:16 believes
00:52:17 one is coming he just doesn’t believe
00:52:18 he’s been born yet right
00:52:20 i i don’t know if you know the
00:52:21 difference between uh the different type
00:52:23 of jew
00:52:24 sex um but yeah okay
00:52:27 um and so he i just listened to today
00:52:30 i’m just like
00:52:31 holy mackerel um also i don’t know i
00:52:35 call myself a nazarene
00:52:37 when he’s talking about the um
00:52:40 the yeshua thing it’s also tied with
00:52:42 nazarene and so i just feel kind of
00:52:45 vindicated because i’ve been calling
00:52:46 myself a nazarene for a long time
00:52:49 but the more important thing is the
00:52:51 jeshua
00:52:52 name of jesus is in the old testament
00:52:56 i found the thing i was going for go so
00:52:59 first nephi 13
00:53:00 uh first yeah first nephi 13 verse 39
00:53:04 and after it had come forth so i think
00:53:08 this is talking about the book of mormon
00:53:10 coming forth
00:53:11 i beheld other books which came forth by
00:53:13 the
00:53:14 power of the lamb of god do you want to
00:53:17 wait want me to wait
00:53:18 no i’m just reading it too okay
00:53:22 power of the lamb of god from the
00:53:23 gentiles unto them
00:53:25 unto the convincing of the gentiles that
00:53:27 the remnant of the seed of my brethren
00:53:29 and also the jews
00:53:30 who are scattered upon the face of the
00:53:32 earth that the records of the prophets
00:53:34 and the twelve apostles of the lamb are
00:53:35 true
00:53:37 and it came to pass that these last
00:53:39 records without seen among the gentiles
00:53:41 shall establish the truth of the first
00:53:44 that’s talking about the bible that’s
00:53:47 the thing that you just described right
00:53:48 there
00:53:49 sure those are these last records are
00:53:51 establishing the truth of the first it’s
00:53:53 amazing
00:53:54 in real time in part of this i mean it
00:53:57 goes along with this is
00:53:59 part of the piece of the puzzle that
00:54:01 kind of helped them
00:54:02 put all this together is the dead sea
00:54:03 scrolls
00:54:05 yeah if they actually some of the
00:54:09 uh oh come on
00:54:12 there’s the forged ones well there’s
00:54:16 forged of anything and everything but
00:54:17 this is
00:54:18 just so frustrating but there’s no truth
00:54:20 in there and it’s so hard because the
00:54:22 the corruption but yeah keep going
00:54:24 well well the dead sea scrolls i mean
00:54:26 there are sects they had their
00:54:28 problems but at the same time they had
00:54:29 the records right
00:54:31 so there’s good and bad to them because
00:54:34 i
00:54:34 i i a calendar is a big deal to me and
00:54:37 what they teach about the calendar
00:54:39 is not what i believe and what i see in
00:54:41 torah and it’s actually not what i see
00:54:43 in the book of mormon also but that’s
00:54:45 another
00:54:45 subject but the one thing that
00:54:48 is good from the dc scrolls that helps
00:54:51 the book of mormon
00:54:52 because a lot of chrism comes at the
00:54:54 book of mormon because they’re like this
00:54:55 is a
00:54:56 a christian’s dream book right it was
00:54:59 yeah basically christian gospel before
00:55:02 christ and after christ
00:55:04 you know what the disney scrolls does
00:55:05 the same thing
00:55:07 awesome there you go they’re doing a lot
00:55:10 of the same things that they’re saying
00:55:12 that the book of mormon’s wrong on they
00:55:13 were doing it before christ
00:55:15 yep but they don’t want to take that in
00:55:18 account because
00:55:20 they’re set in their ways and they’re
00:55:22 just so determined it’s wrong
00:55:24 they’re not willing to look at other
00:55:26 witnesses that
00:55:28 teaches the same thing or in essence i
00:55:30 mean there are some differences right
00:55:32 but some of the just the basic ideas
00:55:34 are there well and i think
00:55:38 some of that desire comes because they
00:55:40 want to throw away
00:55:42 the old testament as it’s done away
00:55:45 and it’s of no use oh yeah the typical i
00:55:48 so even though i grew up christian i’m
00:55:50 okay being called one
00:55:52 i don’t like it though i would prefer to
00:55:54 be called a nazarene
00:55:56 there’s lots of reasons why but yeah
00:55:58 christians
00:56:01 are pagans and they don’t know it
00:56:04 everything they do is pagan
00:56:07 well and so back down here though
00:56:09 actually let’s go back to first nephi 13
00:56:11 to add to your point
00:56:13 um and they went forth from the hand of
00:56:16 the twelve apostles and to the lamb
00:56:18 from the jews unto the gentiles now see
00:56:20 it’s the formation of the great
00:56:21 abominable church
00:56:23 which is most abominable and above all
00:56:25 other most
00:56:26 vulnerable of all other churches for
00:56:28 behold they have taken away
00:56:30 from the gospel of the lamb many parts
00:56:31 which are plain and most precious
00:56:34 um and also many covenants the lord have
00:56:35 they taken away
00:56:37 specifically feasts and festivals and
00:56:39 replace them with what you’re talking
00:56:40 about
00:56:40 paganism yes and then and
00:56:44 and all this they have done that they
00:56:45 might pervert the right way is the lord
00:56:47 that they might blind
00:56:49 the eyes and harden the hearts of the
00:56:51 children of men
00:56:52 yeah and i have a good i mean let me
00:56:55 give two resources
00:56:56 real quick um
00:57:01 as you guys will like this um this is a
00:57:04 big one for me um
00:57:08 it just shows all the major ones are
00:57:11 completely pagan uh and i’m gonna throw
00:57:14 one and i did
00:57:15 recently um
00:57:20 i in this post uh i call up
00:57:24 nelson for pushing
00:57:28 good brother on holiday yeah he’s
00:57:31 pushing good friday and i call him out
00:57:33 among other things
00:57:35 but sure the another one i want to do
00:57:38 this is how the christians are being
00:57:40 deceived
00:57:42 was prophesied in
00:57:45 in the tanakh um
00:57:49 and this is a good video on that um
00:57:53 and so i’m not just making it up
00:57:56 um
00:58:01 last video is not very catholic friendly
00:58:03 i’ll tell you that
00:58:05 um it really calls them out yeah
00:58:09 the uh let me just i’m making myself
00:58:11 some notes here
00:58:13 the so so my my thing is though
00:58:17 is now this is where we’re gonna diverge
00:58:18 in some opinion
00:58:20 okay is i believe that the
00:58:23 goal and the purpose of the cherubim in
00:58:26 a flaming sword
00:58:27 and then the perfection and the purity
00:58:30 of specifically the five books of moses
00:58:33 and understanding the patterns that play
00:58:35 out between the two
00:58:37 is the thing that helps us to guide on
00:58:40 the path
00:58:41 and so back to something you’ve said
00:58:43 already on sorry i don’t know if you can
00:58:45 see me or whatnot but i’m trying to make
00:58:47 scrolling back and forth
00:58:48 so but that’s fine that’s no big deal so
00:58:52 is the with president nelson making the
00:58:56 um the good friday thing um
00:59:01 the what we’ve done is we’ve embraced
00:59:04 and accepted
00:59:06 the traditions of this world like more
00:59:09 than before because i mean we had it
00:59:11 before already because it you know
00:59:13 christmas and easter and halloween for
00:59:15 example the three big ones
00:59:17 totally the church was already doing in
00:59:19 fact i mean
00:59:20 temple square right they make a big deal
00:59:23 i’m with you totally so and that’s where
00:59:26 i
00:59:28 so with the pattern from moses to jesus
00:59:33 there was definitely things that they
00:59:35 had embraced in judaism
00:59:37 that was was embracing other cultures
00:59:40 it’s the it’s the 11 word picture
00:59:44 um of the different uh eleven of the
00:59:48 pharisees i’m gonna clarify because
00:59:50 christ did a parable where the kingdom
00:59:52 of heaven was like in
00:59:53 eleven so eleven in itself is not bad
00:59:55 it’s just one
00:59:56 oh okay no that’s eleven no hold on here
00:59:58 i
01:00:04 it’s never positive in all of the bible
01:00:07 uh new testament it is christ compares
01:00:09 the kingdom of heaven to 11.
01:00:11 i know but it’s three loaves so you have
01:00:14 the jews
01:00:15 christians latter-day saints it’s a
01:00:17 prophecy that all three loaves will be
01:00:19 leaven
01:00:20 which is the process remember where
01:00:22 that’s at because i actually i don’t
01:00:24 remember the three of those no and
01:00:26 actually that whole chapter
01:00:28 talks about there’s the pattern of three
01:00:30 and it’s talking about the different
01:00:33 um the different uh
01:00:38 hold on here let’s let’s go look at it
01:00:41 real quick yeah totally if you don’t
01:00:43 mind
01:00:44 yeah yeah yeah but because i
01:00:47 it’s funny i can’t remember where it’s
01:00:48 at but my
01:00:50 patriarchal blessing talks about levin
01:00:52 and so that’s why it’s
01:00:53 kind of a bigger deal to me
01:00:57 well and the
01:01:00 um oh come on here
01:01:10 always spell this weird uh
01:01:14 okay so the one i’m thinking of is
01:01:16 matthew 13
01:01:18 33 and it’s also luke 13 21.
01:01:21 we could go look at either matthew’s the
01:01:22 one to look at matthew has
01:01:25 there’s other parables in there okay
01:01:30 so he talks about the parable of
01:01:32 essentially the soils
01:01:34 uh i guess it does have three it says
01:01:36 three measures of mill not three
01:01:38 loaves so i guess that could depend on
01:01:40 which translation you use
01:01:42 um in fact
01:01:46 curious um let’s go look at bible hub
01:01:49 for that let’s see if any of them
01:01:50 actually
01:01:55 okay so hold on the parable before it is
01:01:58 really really really important
01:02:00 to see what i’m talking about let’s uh
01:02:03 where do you want to
01:02:04 you want to start at 31 uh 13
01:02:07 24. oh uh
01:02:10 okay so this parable he put forth unto
01:02:14 them saying the kingdom of heaven is
01:02:15 like unto the man
01:02:16 which soweth good seed in his field and
01:02:18 why the men slept his enemy came and
01:02:21 sowed tears among the wheat
01:02:23 and he and went his way and when the
01:02:26 blade was sprang up and brought forth
01:02:28 fruit he appeared tears also
01:02:30 okay so the the one that plants the good
01:02:33 seed is the son of man which is christ
01:02:36 now we often think of this as people but
01:02:39 it’s not people
01:02:40 because there’s only a handful of people
01:02:42 at most
01:02:43 that was alive at the time of christ
01:02:45 that’s still alive right now
01:02:48 so it’s those ideas the things that grow
01:02:51 is like the product so it’s like
01:02:53 children that are growing from it
01:02:55 and after he left so that’s after christ
01:02:58 dies
01:02:59 then the enemy comes in and plants tares
01:03:02 also
01:03:03 so that is the corruption of the church
01:03:05 by the gentiles that we read about in
01:03:08 first news 5 13. okay but
01:03:11 we you don’t gather up the wood you are
01:03:14 the
01:03:14 word you gather up the angels gather the
01:03:18 the people um and so i i think
01:03:21 if we look at the the whole thing 24
01:03:23 through 30 i think there’s reasons to
01:03:25 believe
01:03:26 that’s actually the people um personally
01:03:30 but i do see some of what you’re saying
01:03:33 but
01:03:34 also i think you’re trying to apply it
01:03:36 or
01:03:37 you’re going a little beyond the mark in
01:03:39 my personal opinion
01:03:41 on that point in that you know not
01:03:43 everybody was born while he was
01:03:45 there um so
01:03:48 this is what i’m saying though is it’s
01:03:50 the ideas is the thing that was planted
01:03:53 i’m it’s it’s really straightforward
01:03:55 because
01:03:56 if it was him planting them and then he
01:03:59 sleeps
01:04:01 then the enemy comes and plants
01:04:04 tears it’s those ideas it’s not people
01:04:09 uh well i would disagree because it’s
01:04:12 people that are burned at the second
01:04:14 company nope so hold on let me go
01:04:16 so here’s the deal is then
01:04:20 and this is the time that we’re seeing
01:04:21 right now and let’s see here they grow
01:04:24 up together and you can’t tell the
01:04:25 difference
01:04:26 that’s what’s happened with the pagan
01:04:27 traditions in the christian church
01:04:29 so i i see some what you’re saying now
01:04:32 um
01:04:33 you’re tying into this idea that we’ve
01:04:35 been talking about
01:04:37 those ideas exactly and the enemies
01:04:39 sewed them in this
01:04:41 in the in the in the field so let me let
01:04:44 me just keep going here for a second
01:04:45 stephen
01:04:47 and this so let’s see here and when it
01:04:51 sprang up and brought forth fruit there
01:04:53 appeared also tears so the servants
01:04:55 said to the householder come sir didn’t
01:04:58 you plant good seed
01:04:59 once there are these tares and he said
01:05:02 unto them and enemy have done this so
01:05:03 this is satan
01:05:04 and the servant said unto them will thou
01:05:07 then we go
01:05:08 and gather them up and he says they lest
01:05:10 you gather up the tares
01:05:12 and root up the wheat with them so
01:05:14 that’s your answer why
01:05:15 he did not take the pagan traditions out
01:05:18 of the church
01:05:23 so i see this a little differently just
01:05:25 go with me just go with me don’t worry
01:05:27 about it just go with it
01:05:28 okay and so um the
01:05:32 let’s see here so he doesn’t root him up
01:05:36 unless you root up the wheat with them
01:05:39 let both grow together and tell the
01:05:41 harvest so that’s at the very end
01:05:44 then at the time of the harvest i will
01:05:45 say to the reapers gather together
01:05:47 first the tears and bind them in bundles
01:05:49 and burn them
01:05:50 that’s the holy ghost taking those
01:05:52 incorrect things
01:05:54 binding them up and burning them out of
01:05:55 us
01:05:57 now i i can see somewhat this
01:06:01 interpretation and then gather up the
01:06:03 wheat into my barns that’s the good
01:06:05 stuff
01:06:06 and now the other thing that it says is
01:06:08 later when he’s given the description he
01:06:10 says it’s with weeping and wailing and
01:06:11 gnashing of teeth and anybody that’s
01:06:13 had some tears gathered and burned it’s
01:06:16 hard you know like when you learn
01:06:19 something that’s
01:06:20 kind of shaking a paradigm like it’s
01:06:21 hard and so i think that
01:06:24 fits that description so then that’s
01:06:27 one witness of the of what has happened
01:06:30 so then he goes from that into the grain
01:06:33 of mustard seed
01:06:34 okay a mustard seed ties directly to the
01:06:38 word
01:06:39 of torah and the seed and the i’m sure
01:06:42 you’re familiar with the
01:06:43 seven days prophecy of the creation
01:06:46 uh yeah yeah i am okay so the seed
01:06:50 is tied to abraham and the torah
01:06:54 that’s the seed everything else is
01:06:55 pointing back to the dna
01:06:57 of the seed the dna of abraham
01:07:01 it’s all pointing back to this seed that
01:07:03 has all the information now a way to
01:07:06 make the seed not grow
01:07:07 grind it up fill it full of other ideas
01:07:11 okay that’s 11 okay and if your seed is
01:07:14 going to grow
01:07:15 it needs to be pure so that’s
01:07:18 another way of saying the same thing um
01:07:21 it’s the least of all seeds he’s just
01:07:23 saying it doesn’t even have to be a big
01:07:24 one
01:07:25 it just has to be pure
01:07:28 it’s one of the smallest seeds right
01:07:30 exactly
01:07:32 so then the very next the very next
01:07:35 parable
01:07:36 builds on this this word picture that
01:07:37 he’s painting another parable he’s
01:07:40 spoken to them saying
01:07:41 the kingdom of heaven is likened to 11.
01:07:43 and you know
01:07:44 leaven is never used as a positive
01:07:47 metaphor in scripture
01:07:48 it must be it must be hard to disagree
01:07:50 on your
01:07:51 point well it must be discarded once a
01:07:53 year because that is essentially
01:07:56 the the word picture in the the temple
01:07:58 symbology with the
01:08:00 uh oh come on the loaves the
01:08:03 showbread that’s the one offering that
01:08:06 involves lemon
01:08:07 everything else if yours levin in your
01:08:09 offerings it’s unpure
01:08:11 but that one is also symbolic
01:08:13 symbolizing
01:08:14 part of what we bring to god is how
01:08:16 we’re taking his word
01:08:17 right grinding it up adding in our ideas
01:08:21 exactly what i’m doing i get it this is
01:08:22 11 guys
01:08:23 it’s my ideas into this this lump
01:08:27 but i also have to have the humility
01:08:28 that i have to recognize
01:08:30 i could be wrong so i take it once a
01:08:33 year throw it out
01:08:35 and start fresh for sure in fact the
01:08:37 passover
01:08:38 meal um you know in the
01:08:42 week of first fruits right you can’t
01:08:45 have 11. and so
01:08:46 and that’s symbolic of you having to
01:08:47 throw out your your bad ideas and go
01:08:49 back to it
01:08:50 but here’s another thing for you to
01:08:53 think about
01:08:54 okay um
01:08:58 11 rises
01:09:01 correct and it makes more tasty
01:09:05 exactly makes it more palatable or bad
01:09:07 about it right
01:09:08 and and so we go and see if i’m
01:09:10 remembering the right one
01:09:12 but i don’t remember where it is we can
01:09:13 go find it if you want but
01:09:15 you can’t put new wine and old
01:09:20 wine or wine skins it’s new wine and old
01:09:23 wine skins it’s because
01:09:26 hopefully you guys are in agreement on
01:09:28 this but new wine
01:09:29 is alcoholic and that’s why and the
01:09:32 leaven
01:09:32 expands it and makes it bigger and
01:09:35 that’s why the old wineskins would
01:09:37 burst because they’ve been stretched and
01:09:39 you go put more in there
01:09:41 and like close right they stretch and
01:09:42 then they rip at some point they just
01:09:45 don’t work anymore and i believe
01:09:49 the same basic idea is happening here in
01:09:51 the kingdom of heaven
01:09:52 one but um but let’s read the whole
01:09:55 thing
01:09:56 another parable so then that’s
01:09:59 literally uh that’s hit only one i know
01:10:02 off off top my head i
01:10:03 i gave a a link from 119 ministries i
01:10:07 like about this
01:10:08 verse a lot yeah uh you should go watch
01:10:10 that
01:10:11 um yeah but you put forth the chemo home
01:10:14 is like a oh
01:10:16 no another parable he spake unto them
01:10:18 the kingdom of heaven is like unto 11
01:10:20 which a woman
01:10:21 took and hid in three measures of male
01:10:24 to the whole
01:10:25 was eleventh meaning
01:10:28 she wanted everything to be leavened
01:10:31 right
01:10:32 it this is this to me because
01:10:35 the word levin is never used as positive
01:10:37 and it is those ideas that get added to
01:10:40 it
01:10:41 this is why when people get upset about
01:10:43 the latter-day saints
01:10:45 having some incorrect ideas it’s it’s
01:10:47 prophesied
01:10:48 it would have the ideas of men mingled
01:10:51 in
01:10:52 with what was pure and it’s just it’s
01:10:55 plain as day and
01:10:58 so i agree with you that um the elder’s
01:11:00 church has false justice mixed in with
01:11:03 it in fact uh it started with brigham
01:11:05 young in
01:11:06 my opinion in his cohorts um
01:11:10 but uh and same with all other christian
01:11:13 churches i’m all
01:11:18 in fact it even goes into the clothes
01:11:20 that they want us
01:11:21 to wear right you can’t live either
01:11:23 serve god or mammon
01:11:34 because the focus is business and money
01:11:38 ideas of men mingled with it exactly
01:11:40 that’s taking the purity of the word
01:11:42 grinding it up and putting our own ideas
01:11:44 into it that’s right so but i
01:11:46 i don’t believe in verse 33 11
01:11:49 is is bad um and so i just don’t see
01:11:52 where it’s positive anywhere else in
01:11:53 scripture
01:11:55 uh i mean i don’t remember off top my
01:11:56 head i’d have to go watch the 119
01:11:58 ministries video again
01:12:00 so on the new wine skin though just to
01:12:03 go back to
01:12:04 the reference that you mentioned that’s
01:12:06 why christians didn’t all of a sudden
01:12:08 become latter-day saints that’s why
01:12:10 not all jews also became christians
01:12:13 like there is the new process of the new
01:12:16 rolling forth of new instruction and
01:12:18 instruction that’s pointing to the same
01:12:20 thing
01:12:22 so regarding christians not becoming lds
01:12:25 um if you’re referring to the church
01:12:28 they have their own false traditions and
01:12:31 and i would say it depends on case by
01:12:33 case situation right
01:12:35 some of those false traditions are
01:12:37 what’s going to keep people from joining
01:12:39 now
01:12:39 and there’s let’s just go to the point
01:12:41 where we all where we agree though
01:12:43 is like when joseph smith when god
01:12:45 rolled forth with
01:12:46 joseph smith the reason it wasn’t like
01:12:49 christians boom you’re all you’re all
01:12:52 following
01:12:52 what joseph said is that process of the
01:12:56 new and the old uh wine skins that you
01:12:59 mentioned
01:13:00 oh sure and i well i think that’s more
01:13:04 uh going along the lines in this and
01:13:07 this analogy here is that you had to
01:13:10 start with the new church
01:13:11 you couldn’t go the new wine scale
01:13:15 the same church that was there and just
01:13:16 fix it in christ
01:13:18 sort of i mean i’m going to say this but
01:13:20 this is not exactly what i think
01:13:22 happened but just to get the point about
01:13:24 real quick christ didn’t go join
01:13:28 the churches of his day he would have
01:13:31 got to more people
01:13:32 if he wouldn’t join the sadducees and
01:13:33 pharisees and change enjoying their
01:13:35 rakes
01:13:36 he would have got more people to believe
01:13:38 but the problem is it would have been
01:13:40 correct he would have made compromises
01:13:42 to do that and he wasn’t willing to make
01:13:44 the compromises
01:13:46 which is good i mean we shouldn’t make
01:13:47 compromises on truth
01:13:49 and he wasn’t willing to so let’s
01:13:52 actually talk about that though because
01:13:54 actually what jesus did do was
01:13:57 he didn’t go start at another church and
01:14:00 go build himself a temple in the
01:14:01 wilderness because the
01:14:03 the temple with the you know
01:14:07 for sure he even called the the second
01:14:11 temple his father’s house
01:14:12 right he acknowledged absolutely totally
01:14:14 no he he
01:14:16 he was actually going which is just one
01:14:18 of those patterns that to me just blows
01:14:20 my mind because
01:14:22 you know when people get upset with um
01:14:25 you know i’ve had a bad bishop before
01:14:27 like i know you guys have i know chad
01:14:29 has
01:14:30 and it’s like when you get lit the best
01:14:33 not
01:14:33 horrible though oh i have no problem
01:14:36 saying that a bad bishop go ahead
01:14:39 exactly
01:14:40 totally and it’s jewish
01:14:48 was he a levite
01:14:51 he felt he had a right to it was the
01:14:52 problem right chad no so
01:14:54 the point is though is actually i’m i’m
01:14:56 grateful for my experience
01:14:57 because it gives me compassion for when
01:14:59 i hear somebody else’s experience it’s
01:15:01 actually worse than mine
01:15:02 but i at least understand it and that my
01:15:05 point is though is that doesn’t bother
01:15:07 me because
01:15:08 am i better than christ like he was
01:15:11 going
01:15:12 to the ordinances that these guys were
01:15:15 officiating that was so bad they
01:15:17 killed him caiaphas was not a good guy
01:15:21 but jesus still went to the ordinances
01:15:23 that he was officiating he knew that
01:15:25 caiaphas was going to kill him
01:15:26 and then to top it off after after he
01:15:29 gets killed
01:15:30 the uh the disciples still go to the
01:15:34 temple
01:15:35 with caiaphas officiating yeah
01:15:39 it it though the temple um is quite
01:15:43 different than the eldest
01:15:44 temple um because some of it is right
01:15:46 it’s a different set of torah it’s a
01:15:48 different set of instruction i i’m not
01:15:49 saying it should be the same
01:15:51 but there’s i i think it should be the
01:15:54 same but we can get into that another
01:15:56 time and that’s where like we still have
01:15:59 all of the instruction of the old temple
01:16:02 and that’s where
01:16:04 the actual patterns that are instructed
01:16:06 in the
01:16:07 lds temple are the exact same lessons
01:16:09 they’re the exact same
01:16:11 we’ll disagree on that that’s okay
01:16:19 [Laughter]
01:16:28 no that’s fine it it it took me
01:16:32 four years to let go of that
01:16:36 as i put my holy ghost holy spirit um
01:16:38 pose because it’s a side subject because
01:16:40 it goes along with the day that i posted
01:16:42 it on
01:16:42 a high holiday um and part of that
01:16:46 is the temple and you’ll see that if you
01:16:48 decide to read it but it took me
01:16:50 four years to let go of the lds temple
01:16:54 i call myself that’s where and that’s
01:16:56 where i i feel bad because the pattern
01:16:58 of the two though
01:16:59 the two where you have when when you
01:17:02 just are
01:17:02 relying only on the spirit
01:17:06 you’re just one half like the pattern of
01:17:08 the two though
01:17:09 is if god gave instruction and it’s a
01:17:13 pattern
01:17:13 eldest temple contradicts uh god’s
01:17:17 i need to i need to put something
01:17:18 together you’re good don’t worry about
01:17:19 it i
01:17:20 i would disagree i agree there’s a lot
01:17:22 of problems with it but
01:17:24 joseph only showed that to brigham one
01:17:28 time
01:17:35 smith was in the process of
01:17:37 excommunicating
01:17:38 brigham young for his crimes of polygamy
01:17:41 and but the lds church spins
01:17:45 this story that brigham young and joseph
01:17:48 smith were best buddies that is a
01:17:50 complete lie
01:17:52 they weren’t best buddies joseph smith
01:17:54 was working on gathering evidence to
01:17:56 excommunicate him
01:17:59 well so that so one of those by the way
01:18:03 is who’s whose account are you going to
01:18:05 believe
01:18:06 and that’s where anything like that
01:18:08 falls into the
01:18:09 to the realm of like the writings of the
01:18:12 uh
01:18:13 of the oral tradition like what do i
01:18:15 believe
01:18:18 so one thing just i know this is not
01:18:21 proof for what i said
01:18:22 but read my king brigham post all the
01:18:24 way through and
01:18:27 and tell me you’re good and honestly i’m
01:18:29 not i don’t think
01:18:30 you’re going to share with me something
01:18:31 i don’t know but the problem is is
01:18:33 anytime you take a position on something
01:18:36 about brigham
01:18:37 you’re believing something that somebody
01:18:39 wrote or
01:18:40 i mean no i compare what brigham young
01:18:43 taught
01:18:44 compared to the scriptures
01:18:48 it’s easy like okay no that’s that’s
01:18:49 different that’s dnc 132
01:18:55 no you’re good but once again back to
01:18:57 the pattern though you have the prophet
01:18:59 moses then you have
01:19:00 a authority line put in place and did
01:19:03 the authority line
01:19:04 add other ideas to it from brigham young
01:19:08 did not follow the way of the brigham
01:19:11 young changed the structure of the
01:19:12 church
01:19:12 the eldest church does not follow
01:19:15 uh the doctrine covenant on how the
01:19:18 church
01:19:19 should be organized so this is back to
01:19:22 what i’m saying though stephen is
01:19:23 you have the pattern from moses to jesus
01:19:26 did the
01:19:27 did the establishment from moses to
01:19:29 jesus did they change the organization
01:19:31 of what they had
01:19:33 uh yeah they totally know so why should
01:19:37 we be surprised
01:19:38 i yes that’s right we should not be
01:19:40 following corrupt leaders we should be i
01:19:42 mean the book of mormon makes it clear
01:19:43 we should be
01:19:44 following these leaders yes see look i
01:19:48 think what mike is
01:19:48 and here’s the point of the temple he
01:19:50 didn’t look for caiaphas for leadership
01:19:52 who was right official there’s a
01:19:55 difference
01:19:57 yeah but i i agree there’s totally a
01:19:59 difference and
01:20:00 you have to take an account that john
01:20:02 the baptist came
01:20:03 and rested the authority from the jews
01:20:06 so the jews still had
01:20:07 held some authority and that’s why i
01:20:10 believe
01:20:11 that the brigham and all them
01:20:16 they still had the aaronic priesthood
01:20:18 which is
01:20:19 just like the jews they still had this
01:20:22 durable priesthood
01:20:23 that lasted until christ and it was
01:20:26 rested from the jews
01:20:28 i think a similar pattern has to happen
01:20:31 with within the lds church
01:20:35 and to me i do believe the church has
01:20:39 changed the covenant and broken it like
01:20:41 it talks about in isaiah
01:20:42 but well 1610 is a good one for that one
01:20:47 yeah and i think there’s still a lot of
01:20:49 value in
01:20:50 just the symbols of the temple i don’t
01:20:53 think that it
01:20:54 what they claim it offers because in if
01:20:56 you read
01:20:58 the doctrine and covenants 1 24 the
01:21:01 commandment to build the temple it says
01:21:03 if you don’t do these things your
01:21:04 baptisms will be acceptable but your
01:21:06 baptisms for your death will not be
01:21:08 and so i think all this work we’ve been
01:21:11 doing
01:21:12 so a book of mormon teaches against
01:21:14 baptisms for the dead and
01:21:15 dnc 124 is one of the sections that i
01:21:18 reject
01:21:19 for multiple reasons one joseph said
01:21:22 though we have to redeem our dead
01:21:24 well that’s back to you at that point
01:21:26 what that’s meant to be debatable
01:21:29 um in fact because when we sin we dead
01:21:32 we’re dead
01:21:34 okay yeah let me let me add something
01:21:36 though is the jews did not
01:21:38 understand the ordinances that they were
01:21:40 given from moses should we be
01:21:41 surprised that we don’t fully understand
01:21:43 the ordinances that we were given
01:21:45 through joseph smith
01:21:46 well uh i don’t believe the eldest
01:21:49 temple was given through joseph smith
01:21:51 i believe it’s from brigham young and
01:21:53 the jesuits let me give you an
01:21:55 interesting
01:21:56 quote you can go look more on if you
01:21:58 want
01:21:59 and well now the quote is written by
01:22:01 yourself by temple ceremony that
01:22:03 contradicts
01:22:04 the scriptures well and that’s where
01:22:08 it’s it’s i well actually i’d be curious
01:22:11 what what
01:22:12 give me a give me the the dead ringer
01:22:14 what are you gonna say contradict
01:22:15 scripture just give me the the dead ring
01:22:17 and let’s go for it
01:22:18 well there’s lots of them but one that
01:22:19 just give me the biggest one
01:22:21 well i i don’t have them in prioritized
01:22:23 order
01:22:24 because i don’t even have it written
01:22:25 down they’re in my so i’d have to sit
01:22:27 down and think about it i need to write
01:22:28 them down
01:22:29 see one that’s that’s barely false
01:22:30 witness man no it’s not look
01:22:32 you want me to give me one that’s not
01:22:34 bearing false wasn’t just because i
01:22:36 haven’t written them all down doesn’t
01:22:37 mean it’s a false awareness
01:22:39 yeah the the covenants so when you
01:22:43 covenant you’re covenanting with your
01:22:44 life
01:22:46 sermon amount teaches you not to do that
01:22:48 sermon on the mount
01:22:49 teaches you should be honest the yay
01:22:52 that is a hebrew expression to be honest
01:22:54 about your covenants the eldest temple
01:22:57 makes you
01:22:58 covenant with your life okay so
01:23:02 all of the times when they actually
01:23:04 broke the covenants
01:23:08 no book of moses the only one that
01:23:10 covenants
01:23:11 by the slitting of the throat are
01:23:14 evil people and that’s what you’re doing
01:23:16 in the temple
01:23:18 okay so steven still implied even though
01:23:20 is the death penalty
01:23:22 ever part of breaking the the covenants
01:23:24 in the law
01:23:25 uh it’s against the sermon on the mount
01:23:29 but it also just be honest but then here
01:23:31 you are in the temple
01:23:33 promising to take your life if you don’t
01:23:35 know and that’s where
01:23:36 you’re not you’re looking at it too
01:23:38 literally that’s my point
01:23:40 you’re not well so back to the law
01:23:42 you’re is the death penalty part of the
01:23:44 law of moses
01:23:46 yeah it’s still capital punishment is
01:23:48 still
01:23:49 um but exactly but it is taught against
01:23:53 you don’t
01:23:54 do that for oaths you don’t do that for
01:23:57 oaths
01:23:57 and that’s what’s happening in the
01:23:59 temple is
01:24:08 so back up though what we’re talking
01:24:10 about is
01:24:11 using types and shadows to teach did god
01:24:14 want you to to go kill everybody that
01:24:17 was an adulterer
01:24:18 literally go kill them or was he trying
01:24:20 to teach the people something
01:24:22 uh actually if we go through the law
01:24:25 in fact you’re probably referring to the
01:24:27 adulterous woman in the new testament
01:24:29 and the reason why
01:24:30 sure she was she wasn’t forgiven first
01:24:33 of all
01:24:33 like a lot of people like to claim she
01:24:35 was she was not hold on
01:24:36 you’re answering a different question
01:24:39 but
01:24:39 okay go ahead there is a process
01:24:43 to it it’s not that oh i just saw
01:24:45 someone go commit adultery i’m going to
01:24:47 stone them no
01:24:49 you have to go through the judges
01:24:53 which bishops are actually when you go
01:24:55 read the dnc on them
01:24:57 it states that they’re supposed to be
01:24:59 common law judges
01:25:00 meaning judges of the law
01:25:04 that’s the the bishops today don’t do
01:25:07 what the scriptures
01:25:08 say that they should be doing and i
01:25:10 bring this out in this
01:25:12 post this is you’re good but my specific
01:25:15 question though is did god want them to
01:25:18 kill
01:25:18 the adulteress person was that if they
01:25:22 actually did it and they went through
01:25:23 the process yes
01:25:24 he did see i would say that this is back
01:25:27 to where
01:25:28 when jesus on the sermon of the mount
01:25:30 takes the law and explains it and says
01:25:32 to the people
01:25:33 hey the law says this but i say to you
01:25:36 this
01:25:37 the whole point of the law was trying to
01:25:39 get
01:25:40 the sermon on the amount actually makes
01:25:41 the law more strict not more relaxed
01:25:45 i know but what it is and what you’re
01:25:46 saying though here he relaxed it and
01:25:48 that he’s
01:25:49 taking away the punishments and he never
01:25:51 did that
01:25:52 well punishments are still there he made
01:25:56 it
01:25:56 harder to live well then why didn’t he
01:25:58 take the adulterous woman
01:26:00 before the judges and do it right
01:26:02 because the requirements
01:26:04 to do that were not fulfilled
01:26:07 first of all if seek they caught him in
01:26:09 the very act
01:26:10 where’s the man because the law says
01:26:12 both are supposed to be punished
01:26:14 and in addition it was two witnesses
01:26:17 that had to bring
01:26:18 their witness to the judge no one
01:26:22 came to him with a witness that she
01:26:25 committed and that’s why
01:26:26 where are those thy accusers two
01:26:29 accusers
01:26:30 had to come to him none did
01:26:34 so you’re saying though that the goal
01:26:36 was to
01:26:37 kill the adulterous woman that was i
01:26:39 don’t know if that’s the goal
01:26:41 well so if we’re talking about the
01:26:43 adulterers they were trying to chip up
01:26:45 jesus and they knew they didn’t quite
01:26:48 follow everything and what i’m saying is
01:26:50 around it
01:26:51 the goal of the law and the the
01:26:55 the uh penalties of it was teaching
01:26:59 in other words jesus would have taken
01:27:01 the woman and went and held a proper
01:27:03 trial
01:27:04 because if that was to fulfill all
01:27:06 righteousness and that was the point
01:27:09 they would have met the requirements to
01:27:11 do that
01:27:13 they left the judges don’t go looking
01:27:16 out for people to judge
01:27:18 cases are supposed to be bring out to
01:27:20 them this
01:27:21 just shows me you don’t understand it
01:27:24 well judges don’t go around looking for
01:27:27 people to judge
01:27:29 so if he’s to fulfill all righteousness
01:27:31 he should have had a woman stone
01:27:33 to your point no it’s not
01:27:36 to fulfill righteousness is to be
01:27:38 baptized and to teach it in fact
01:27:39 this gets into word what does fulfill
01:27:41 mean
01:27:43 and i can show from the book of mormon
01:27:44 fulfill means teach
01:27:47 second nephi 31 is one of my favorite
01:27:49 examples on that it means teach
01:27:54 we could it’s interesting though because
01:27:56 you’re holding the bible at a different
01:27:58 standard than the
01:27:59 the then the temple because the temple
01:28:02 i’m telling you
01:28:02 is being said it’s the same standard but
01:28:05 the lds temple is false
01:28:07 but hear me out what it is is i’m saying
01:28:10 the new the old testament
01:28:12 has death penalty and you’re saying
01:28:16 and that the temple has death penalty
01:28:18 both have death penalty you’re saying
01:28:20 one’s wrong and the other there’s not
01:28:22 yeah and i told you why one’s wrong and
01:28:24 one’s not and you’re forgetting that
01:28:25 point that i brought out
01:28:30 death penalties are for specific sins
01:28:35 death penalties for specific sins
01:28:38 and that’s why i’m saying that those
01:28:40 specific sins and specific death
01:28:42 penalties are teaching us
01:28:44 patterns yeah but the reason why one’s
01:28:46 okay one’s not is because the way that
01:28:48 the
01:28:48 eldest church is doing it contradicts
01:28:50 the law
01:28:51 and the sermon on the mount
01:28:56 just been well and that’s what i’m
01:28:57 saying it’s you they’re both lessons
01:29:00 they’re both
01:29:00 types and shadows no they’re they’re not
01:29:02 taking one literally and one not
01:29:05 no i’m not i’m taking them both
01:29:07 literally
01:29:09 so then if jesus was to fulfill all
01:29:11 righteousness
01:29:12 if they’re both literally what does
01:29:14 fulfill me
01:29:16 you want to use that word but let’s go
01:29:18 look at what it means it means teach
01:29:22 so then did he teach the people because
01:29:24 jesus
01:29:25 there’s parts of the law that are
01:29:27 specifically
01:29:28 for the levites and the sons of aaron
01:29:32 and women did he do that
01:29:35 for one he’s not a woman so he couldn’t
01:29:37 do that he’s not a levite so he couldn’t
01:29:39 do that and he wasn’t a son of aaron he
01:29:41 couldn’t do that
01:29:42 but he never taught people to break
01:29:44 those things to your point
01:29:45 right yeah he never told people to break
01:29:47 it but what you’re saying though is the
01:29:49 death penalty for the woman
01:29:52 he would have to teach how to properly
01:29:54 do it
01:29:55 right and they didn’t do it properly i
01:29:57 know but he didn’t teach it
01:29:59 not there we don’t have the whole record
01:30:01 he taught the whole law
01:30:04 just because
01:30:12 i’m 100 on board with that that’s where
01:30:14 i say the death penalties
01:30:16 and he did teach it complete he did
01:30:18 teach it correct
01:30:19 and we have the full record in the book
01:30:21 of mormon never once does he say hey
01:30:24 the death penalty needs to be
01:30:25 administered this way
01:30:27 because the death penalty we don’t have
01:30:29 the full record even the book of mormon
01:30:30 says we don’t have the full record
01:30:32 i mean how many times does the the
01:30:34 compilers
01:30:36 primarily mormon and moroni say we don’t
01:30:38 have a we can’t even write a hundredth
01:30:40 part we don’t have the whole record
01:30:42 and that’s where if it’s important he
01:30:44 taught it and he was teaching
01:30:46 that these things not everything in the
01:30:48 book of mormon that’s important is
01:30:49 taught
01:30:50 there were times where both mormon and
01:30:53 moroni wanted to put stuff down because
01:30:54 they felt it was important and god told
01:30:56 them not to
01:30:58 because it was sealed exactly and no it
01:31:01 wasn’t sealed it was
01:31:02 in their head it wasn’t the record was
01:31:04 not sealed
01:31:05 god told him i would try in fact what he
01:31:08 said
01:31:09 to mormon was i will try the people to
01:31:11 see if they believe
01:31:12 this lesser part before
01:31:16 they get the greater part
01:31:20 okay that doesn’t say anything about
01:31:21 sealed
01:31:23 the sealed portion is the gold plates
01:31:25 that yeah joseph smith wasn’t supposed
01:31:27 to
01:31:27 translate that because that was sealed
01:31:29 and that’s for later
01:31:31 yeah but i’m talking about the record
01:31:33 that mormon and moroni compiled that we
01:31:35 do have
01:31:37 okay so
01:31:40 i i still this this is just interesting
01:31:42 to me because
01:31:44 the death penalty in the old testament
01:31:47 you’re not condemning but the death
01:31:49 penalty in the temple
01:31:51 you are condemning because it’s
01:31:53 according to the law symbolic
01:31:56 they’re adding and taking away and
01:31:57 deuteronomy 12 13 and 18
01:32:00 says that we should not be doing that
01:32:02 and that’s what they’re doing
01:32:03 and what i’m saying is sermon on the
01:32:05 mount in other places i don’t know if
01:32:07 thought in my head but teach us that
01:32:08 when you make a covenant an oath
01:32:12 you’re honest about it in fact when uh
01:32:16 when i got the plate well yep if i got
01:32:19 the
01:32:19 brass plates right and when he’s going
01:32:22 back
01:32:23 um forgetting the the guy with the
01:32:26 record’s name off
01:32:27 top of my head dang it um
01:32:32 i’m sorry were you saying laban not
01:32:34 laban um
01:32:35 oh yeah no no leban’s servant
01:32:39 because if i killed cleveland yeah yeah
01:32:42 um
01:32:42 ishmael i’m not ishmael okay keep going
01:32:46 anyways nephi had him
01:32:49 uh do an oath covenant
01:32:52 uh to go with them he didn’t threaten
01:32:55 his life
01:32:56 he was he just was honest about it
01:32:59 and then the earth required him to
01:33:02 promise with his life though that’s a
01:33:03 really good no he did not promise with
01:33:05 his life come on here
01:33:11 by the way you remember the servant’s
01:33:13 name
01:33:14 huh the woman adultery by the way most
01:33:16 people don’t believe that’s actually
01:33:18 part of john’s record
01:33:20 uh yeah i’ve come across that um
01:33:24 i i’m not too worried about it either
01:33:25 way um
01:33:28 there’s multiple parts on that i i’d
01:33:30 have to go look i don’t think joseph
01:33:32 smith took it out with the jst
01:33:34 but i do believe the jst is a very good
01:33:37 reference i don’t think
01:33:38 it’s complete i think he did it well
01:33:42 enough that it was good enough to
01:33:44 help with many false traditions that
01:33:46 have come up
01:33:48 right if that makes sense
01:33:51 and so i i do try to reference it but i
01:33:53 don’t believe he took that
01:33:54 out but i also am acknowledging it’s not
01:33:58 the jst was fully completed he did get
01:34:01 to the point
01:34:01 he felt it was good enough to publish
01:34:03 though if that makes sense
01:34:06 um yeah i agree i think
01:34:10 and i think it’s anyway regardless
01:34:13 right to me i and i i wish we could go
01:34:15 back to what
01:34:16 whatever joseph had originally yeah but
01:34:19 because joe’s uh grigham definitely
01:34:22 added a lot
01:34:23 i mean he bring him modified
01:34:27 he bring him i i
01:34:30 the book of mormon that we have now i
01:34:32 don’t believe he did
01:34:33 any changes to but i so royal scousen
01:34:37 you know his uh book of mormon project
01:34:39 right
01:34:40 yeah in fact my favorite book of mormon
01:34:42 is his
01:34:44 yeah um but he he has a statement that
01:34:48 the worst book of mormon there was was
01:34:50 the one that was printed
01:34:52 in london uh under his direction
01:34:56 under brigham’s under brigham’s
01:34:58 direction in london yeah probably
01:35:00 because he just didn’t really care
01:35:02 that like after i woke up and i saw some
01:35:04 of the things he
01:35:05 taught i don’t think he read the book of
01:35:07 mormon once if he did he didn’t really
01:35:09 believe it
01:35:10 because he contradicted like all the
01:35:13 time
01:35:14 all the time now brigham is the
01:35:17 the more and more you study brigham like
01:35:20 there’s just a lot of problems
01:35:21 tons of problems you’ll you’ll if you
01:35:24 haven’t read it go read my king brigham
01:35:25 post
01:35:26 i i compare brigham young in the lds
01:35:28 church
01:35:30 what is it mosiah 11 through 22
01:35:34 um so that what is that 13 chapters
01:35:37 uh um point by point um
01:35:41 and they follow it pretty
01:35:44 damn well um i believe it’s a prophecy a
01:35:47 brigham young in the earliest church
01:35:49 um anyways um i think the chapter
01:35:53 that has to do with what i was bringing
01:35:55 up is it might be
01:35:57 seven yeah it’s four yeah you’re good i
01:36:00 saw that you’re good and you’re right it
01:36:01 doesn’t say that he promised with his
01:36:03 life
01:36:03 but they were promising they would spare
01:36:05 his life
01:36:06 and i was trying to see what was the
01:36:09 penalty
01:36:10 for breaking an oath in the in the torah
01:36:14 um sure
01:36:18 um i don’t know that off top my head
01:36:20 we’d have to go look
01:36:21 but the sermon amount teaches that you
01:36:24 don’t and we can go read it um yeah yeah
01:36:28 it just says it says i don’t remember
01:36:30 all the points on my head but
01:36:31 the parts i do remember is yeah yeah
01:36:33 which is basically
01:36:34 be honest for one thing it’s part of
01:36:36 what it says in sermon not neither the
01:36:38 hair of your head
01:36:40 and hair has to do with authority and
01:36:45 and that what authority do we have over
01:36:47 really our lives and what we do with it
01:36:50 um anyways we could go look at the
01:36:52 actual wording because i’m going
01:36:54 somewhat off of rough memory
01:36:55 on that point right but thousand oaths
01:36:58 must be kept
01:37:01 okay if a man vow unto the lord or swear
01:37:03 an oath to bind his soul with a bond
01:37:06 he who shall not break his word he shall
01:37:09 do according to all which proceedeth out
01:37:10 of his mouth
01:37:12 a woman bow a vow unto the lord
01:37:15 to bind herself by a bond being your
01:37:17 father’s house potter here at the bow
01:37:21 let’s see here looking for the penalty
01:37:32 every vowel every binding goes to
01:37:34 afflict the soul
01:37:36 probably um off a quick thought i think
01:37:39 it depends on the actual
01:37:41 oath um but anyways
01:37:45 well and that’s actually even on this
01:37:48 i would like to me everything in the
01:37:51 the torah the instructions it’s not the
01:37:54 target
01:37:54 it’s actually teaching us like the
01:37:58 tools and the information on the target
01:38:00 which is what jesus expounded like
01:38:03 this was the point and that’s the thing
01:38:05 that the torah is the point
01:38:07 it’s just the people misunderstood in
01:38:09 fact
01:38:10 the the the two great commandments right
01:38:13 love god and love your neighbor
01:38:15 right but this is people love to forget
01:38:18 the next couple verses on this it
01:38:20 so hangs the law and the prophets
01:38:24 and so i mean you could split the ten
01:38:26 commandments into two sections and and
01:38:29 there’s
01:38:30 two theories you do the first four and
01:38:31 then the last six i actually
01:38:33 prefer the jewish tradition where you do
01:38:35 the first five and the last five
01:38:37 because the first fight has to do with
01:38:39 those over you
01:38:40 which include our parents and then our
01:38:43 peers
01:38:44 or like everybody else right and that’s
01:38:47 loving you you’re those in authority of
01:38:50 you and
01:38:51 your your peers everybody else and then
01:38:53 all the other laws
01:38:55 are branched off of those ten
01:38:58 yeah just get into the specifics in fact
01:39:00 what happened was the israelites
01:39:02 god gave him the ten commandments the
01:39:04 israelites start messing up
01:39:06 and what father when someone messes up
01:39:08 gives them more clarification
01:39:10 on the original i mean we both have kids
01:39:14 yeah i i’m gonna guess chad does but i
01:39:17 don’t really know
01:39:18 um yeah you’ve heard them oh i think i
01:39:21 actually saw
01:39:22 one actually a little baby now that
01:39:25 you’ve mentioned that
01:39:26 um but when they make a mistake you
01:39:29 don’t make a new law
01:39:30 you give them more clarification what
01:39:33 the law
01:39:34 was okay
01:39:37 in fact here’s one of my favorite
01:39:39 examples on this thou shalt not murder
01:39:42 right and that’s a better translation of
01:39:44 thou shalt not kill
01:39:47 because we’re supposed to defend
01:39:48 ourselves and anyways
01:39:50 that gets into another subject but
01:39:54 thou shalt not murder uh i believe
01:39:57 kosher laws are under that because i
01:40:00 believe you can say thou shalt not
01:40:02 kill or murder yourself
01:40:05 tongue twister thou shalt not murder
01:40:07 yourself and thou shalt not murder
01:40:09 including yourself
01:40:11 by slowly poisoning yourself over a long
01:40:13 period of time
01:40:15 because foods that are not biblically
01:40:17 kosher
01:40:18 are more poisonous for us and cause
01:40:21 diseases
01:40:22 and that’s where like kosher is an
01:40:24 example though
01:40:25 of how the law was symbolic because it’s
01:40:28 trying to get him somewhere
01:40:30 oh i disagree on this psychology in fact
01:40:32 acts 15 i would say disagrees with you
01:40:34 also
01:40:35 acts 15 when the new converts
01:40:38 uh one of the requirements the one of
01:40:40 the four or five requirements
01:40:43 is to be kosher okay
01:40:46 you’re good so with the vision though in
01:40:48 acts 15
01:40:49 uh the visions no acts 15 is the counsel
01:40:52 you’re talking acts 10 acts 10 is
01:40:54 division with good animals and peter
01:40:56 yeah go ahead and we can go look at the
01:40:58 last
01:41:00 um verses in that chapter peter tells us
01:41:03 the interpretation
01:41:05 is that the gospel is supposed to go to
01:41:07 the gentiles it has nothing to do with
01:41:09 food
01:41:09 in fact peter even says exactly and
01:41:12 that’s where
01:41:13 it has nothing no but you’re he says i’m
01:41:16 kosher
01:41:18 in it and in fact even in 11 chapter 11
01:41:21 he goes into the same thing i’m kosher
01:41:23 and his vision was about giving the
01:41:24 gospel
01:41:25 to the gentiles the problem was this
01:41:28 vision was taking away of false
01:41:30 traditions that the jews grew up
01:41:32 or started developing that because
01:41:35 they were supposed to give the gospel
01:41:37 out to the whole world
01:41:38 but they chose not to and they thought
01:41:40 they started getting this elitism that
01:41:42 the elder sites have that we
01:41:44 see that i’m better than everybody else
01:41:47 in fact
01:41:48 the jews didn’t even want to associate
01:41:49 with the samaritans and they were
01:41:51 hebrews and jews themselves
01:41:54 because they thought they were better
01:41:55 they were mixed blood but
01:41:57 the the the the congregation though
01:42:02 hold on with the with the roman guy
01:42:06 saying hey
01:42:06 even the dogs give uh his crumbs like
01:42:10 he was basically calling out to him and
01:42:11 jesus was ignoring him
01:42:13 like there was something to the order of
01:42:16 the gospel going so that gets into an
01:42:19 interesting subject
01:42:20 um but jesus goes to who
01:42:24 believes him
01:42:27 and he was supposed to go to the jews i
01:42:30 mean this gets into daniel 9 some
01:42:32 um the the to correct this false
01:42:36 tradition that
01:42:37 came up um paul was the one that gave it
01:42:40 give it out to the gentiles or to the
01:42:41 world which was prophesied
01:42:43 to daniel’s vision in daniel so with
01:42:47 peter’s vision though he used the
01:42:49 symbolism of
01:42:50 kosher laws right
01:42:55 kind of i don’t know if i would
01:42:57 necessarily say that because the things
01:42:58 were there were
01:42:59 unkosher and he didn’t understand what
01:43:02 was going on when god was telling him to
01:43:04 eat it because like no lord
01:43:05 i i mean i’m kosher right
01:43:09 i don’t know exact words but like yeah
01:43:12 we’re communicating i’ve never eaten an
01:43:15 unkosher animal why are you telling me
01:43:16 to eat
01:43:18 unclean animal he didn’t understand the
01:43:21 vision
01:43:23 no you’re good so actually stephen
01:43:26 i i do need to get going um the
01:43:29 i think actually i just i feel like i
01:43:31 understand at least where you come from
01:43:32 and i feel like you understand where i
01:43:34 come from like i see
01:43:36 essentially just to try to put a bow on
01:43:38 it like the thing that i see
01:43:40 is everything in the old testament law
01:43:44 is trying to get us somewhere and he’s
01:43:45 using symbolisms that teach the same
01:43:48 thing essentially pointing us to the
01:43:50 same goal
01:43:51 and you can see that play out where it’s
01:43:54 clearer fulfillment in the new testament
01:43:57 with the
01:43:58 early christians and the thing that i
01:44:00 feel like i see
01:44:01 is the same pattern playing out for us
01:44:04 today
01:44:07 we might disagree on what the new
01:44:08 testament is actually teaching because
01:44:11 correct no i agree i do believe that we
01:44:14 still need to keep
01:44:14 torah i know do you think i do that i’m
01:44:18 kosher um i mean i can’t
01:44:21 i’m in my pajamas right now but oh you
01:44:24 got cheat sheet and everything
01:44:25 exactly yes yep exactly yeah oh i said
01:44:28 it wrong but you yeah
01:44:29 yes and so we may disagree on what the
01:44:33 new testament
01:44:34 says on that because it sounds like you
01:44:37 think it would
01:44:38 if i’m understanding completely you
01:44:40 don’t think that’s the case
01:44:42 well just an example i’m wearing tt2 or
01:44:46 i’m saying it wrong
01:44:46 but it’s the same patterns god’s
01:44:49 teaching us the same
01:44:50 lessons your temple garment’s not a two
01:44:53 seed
01:44:54 but i i can see how you’re applying that
01:44:57 it’s all good but that’s where we
01:44:59 disagree and it’s all good i
01:45:01 understand where you’re coming from but
01:45:03 i i um
01:45:04 this is something i need to write a post
01:45:06 on you should go look at deuteronomy 13
01:45:08 and 18 because those are
01:45:12 uh the laws against someone who teaches
01:45:15 against the law
01:45:16 exactly totally 30.
01:45:20 alma 30 now there’s this you know
01:45:23 quote from joseph smith we are to abide
01:45:25 by what’s in the book of mormon right
01:45:27 and abide means guard protect um
01:45:30 defend it and alma 30 is an example
01:45:33 of deuteronomy 13 and 18 point by point
01:45:37 because there’s a prophet or a false
01:45:39 prophet teaching or trying to change it
01:45:42 yep i totally follow you
01:45:45 and i mean i think we can look at joseph
01:45:47 smith this is what it is
01:45:48 you and i disagree on what the law means
01:45:51 that’s that’s really what it boils down
01:45:52 to
01:45:53 like it’s the symbolically trying to get
01:45:56 you somewhere it’s it’s the
01:45:57 target as that we’re trying to get is
01:45:59 there and you’re
01:46:00 really focused on that bow shot it’s
01:46:03 like if i’m the archer
01:46:04 just just doing everything according to
01:46:07 the lies like man i have perfect form
01:46:09 look at this this is awesome
01:46:11 it’s not about that it’s about him
01:46:12 trying to hit him you
01:46:14 so you think the law can change where i
01:46:18 i don’t i think the underpinnings of the
01:46:21 law
01:46:22 all the lessons that is everything
01:46:24 underneath it
01:46:25 never changes
01:46:28 uh and to me i i see some what you’re
01:46:31 saying
01:46:32 but the law hasn’t changed no yeah
01:46:36 and that’s where actually my point in
01:46:39 kind of in
01:46:39 well actually my point not kind of my
01:46:41 complete point
01:46:42 is engaging with you on some of these
01:46:45 points though
01:46:46 is specifically the thing that is to
01:46:48 guide us and to help us to see
01:46:50 how these patterns play out is
01:46:53 the specifically the five books of moses
01:46:56 and the pattern that plays from there to
01:46:58 jesus christ
01:47:00 sure whatever record you use book of
01:47:03 mormon torah tanakh
01:47:05 new testament or even some of these
01:47:07 other records right
01:47:08 the dead sea scrolls or whatever the
01:47:10 whole point is to
01:47:12 get us to be like christ and accept him
01:47:15 as
01:47:16 the promised messiah uh i mean because
01:47:19 it’s not just
01:47:20 only believing in him it’s taking it and
01:47:23 writing it upon our hearts i mean
01:47:25 d.c 76 says those who
01:47:28 follow a prophet are going to lowest
01:47:31 degree
01:47:33 of glory sure and what does ld’s church
01:47:37 teach
01:47:37 follow a prophet anyway i know that’s
01:47:39 that’s the adding too exactly it follows
01:47:42 the patterns man you’re exactly right
01:47:43 right but more what i’m getting at
01:47:45 it’s i do think we agree that
01:47:49 on this point that the law
01:47:52 is a teacher to help to have us become
01:47:56 like christ to be like him
01:47:59 at the same time accepting him because
01:48:01 without him uh
01:48:03 we have to i mean we have the problem of
01:48:05 our sins
01:48:06 and without him we can’t repent but as
01:48:09 lectures on faith
01:48:10 stay he is the template
01:48:14 of a saved being we need to become like
01:48:17 him
01:48:18 to be saved exactly and he kept torah
01:48:22 well and here’s the thing that’s amazing
01:48:25 is
01:48:26 and this is where i am doing my very
01:48:28 best to do that
01:48:29 and that’s why i’m in the church and
01:48:31 that’s why i go to the temple is because
01:48:33 i see him play that same pattern
01:48:35 with the way he worked with caiaphas
01:48:38 well and
01:48:38 then also that’s why i left the church
01:48:40 and i don’t believe you know his
01:48:42 template
01:48:43 exactly yeah i follow your your train of
01:48:46 thought i i totally follow you
01:48:48 so sure i i understand where you’re
01:48:50 coming from
01:48:51 um i just i i disagree with it
01:48:55 um yeah and i
01:48:58 and i’ll tell you what what brought me
01:49:00 into torah really was the book of mormon
01:49:03 yeah i mean i grew up in this i’m
01:49:05 guessing you grew up lts
01:49:07 yeah totally yeah we grew up in the same
01:49:09 church i mean it was done away with
01:49:11 right it’s not needed
01:49:12 it’s the lesser law right yeah that’s
01:49:15 what they thought
01:49:17 so let me say one thing to that though
01:49:19 the torah
01:49:20 is what made the temple make sense to me
01:49:24 and understanding the connection there
01:49:27 so
01:49:28 uh you’re good we’d have to probably we
01:49:30 could get in the details more
01:49:32 another yeah yeah and we basically did
01:49:34 and i appreciate your time going over
01:49:36 that
01:49:37 and uh looks like chad’s wrapping up for
01:49:39 the night too so
01:49:40 chad thanks for hanging out with us man
01:49:43 trying to get my one-year-old on the
01:49:44 potty she that’s all right i get it no
01:49:47 you’re good
01:49:48 that’s all right well i can say i’m
01:49:49 somewhere in between you guys because i
01:49:51 think that
01:49:52 someone came and was cast out um
01:49:58 and they shouldn’t have been and they
01:49:59 rested the authority from the church so
01:50:02 i’m somewhere in between where you guys
01:50:04 are but are you a sniffer right if you
01:50:06 don’t mind me asking
01:50:08 uh i guess so oh come on i’m not
01:50:11 answering that for you chad it’s all
01:50:12 good so chad
01:50:14 is challenging me to look into denver
01:50:16 but actually hold on
01:50:18 you reference 13 and 18 in deuteronomy
01:50:20 and that’s my big hang up with denver is
01:50:22 like if you’re going to be capital p
01:50:24 profit there’s some really specific
01:50:26 things that mean
01:50:28 hey chad do you have enough balls to say
01:50:30 denver is a profit
01:50:36 emperor has never claimed he’s a prophet
01:50:38 by the way uh
01:50:39 but his latest teaching about what a
01:50:41 prophet is pretty matches what he claims
01:50:43 for himself so and so he doesn’t have
01:50:45 the balls to call himself a prophet nor
01:50:46 does any of his followers
01:50:49 well i’ll let i’ll let him
01:50:53 speak for himself obviously he got
01:50:56 interviewed he won’t
01:50:57 call himself a prophet well and honestly
01:51:00 chad like
01:51:00 i’ll be straight honest with you but
01:51:02 that’s the thing i’m looking for
01:51:03 every time you send something like i i
01:51:06 keep listening to the different
01:51:07 conference things because
01:51:09 to do the things that he’s doing my
01:51:11 feeling is he does need to be a capital
01:51:13 p
01:51:13 prophet where he is calling out as a
01:51:15 prophet and saying thus saith the lord
01:51:26 which actually i mean that’s a whole
01:51:28 nother subject um
01:51:29 that he actually claimed to say if the
01:51:31 lord but one
01:51:34 because of the friends i i kind of when
01:51:36 i first woke up to things
01:51:38 they they kind of like denver snuffer so
01:51:40 i i kind of
01:51:41 i i did uh well rock wasn’t in the air i
01:51:45 have met rocky i don’t know rob kaye
01:51:48 oh yeah yes rob k i i love the guy i
01:51:50 know
01:51:51 um we disagree on some things but he
01:51:54 helped me see torah
01:51:55 in addition with the book yeah i know
01:51:57 rob really well well not real well but i
01:51:59 know rob
01:52:00 i sat with him in his house and had
01:52:01 discussions sir sir
01:52:03 rob at first thought there was a
01:52:05 possibility denver was and
01:52:06 um and so that’s part of the reason i
01:52:09 first started looking into him but as
01:52:11 i studied more i saw him doing lots of
01:52:13 contradictions and
01:52:15 there’s my i put a link to my denver
01:52:17 snuffer resource page that i have a few
01:52:19 things
01:52:19 on there i need to write more i’ll be
01:52:22 curious to look at that but
01:52:24 yeah see like with rob the thing that i
01:52:26 felt like with rob is he was
01:52:28 he would go to the fellowships and
01:52:30 people were saying this and people were
01:52:32 saying that
01:52:33 and it would be like that’s why like
01:52:37 mike is always asking me about what’s
01:52:38 denver done or what’s this or what does
01:52:40 he say about this
01:52:42 and i’m always trying to like give him
01:52:44 the article give him the talk
01:52:46 i don’t want to repeat what denver said
01:52:48 because
01:52:49 it would be like i feel like everyone
01:52:53 misunderstood joseph even right before
01:52:55 he died he said you don’t know me
01:52:58 and you know uh well i think there’s a
01:53:01 lot of quotes
01:53:01 that uh were said afterwards there
01:53:04 aren’t authentic
01:53:05 quotes to be honest there are a lot of
01:53:08 quotes what i’m sorry
01:53:09 i believe there’s a lot of hearsay
01:53:11 quotes that are authentically from
01:53:13 joseph smith right i i okay
01:53:16 i agree i also think like
01:53:19 um joseph was the loser of history right
01:53:23 right his journals were manipulated
01:53:26 like um so he doesn’t really
01:53:30 there i i learned some of that stuff
01:53:32 initially because of denver snuffer i
01:53:34 don’t
01:53:34 but i i do believe he’s a liar on a lot
01:53:37 of things where he states he’s getting
01:53:39 revelations and that he’s has seen god
01:53:41 face to face and
01:53:42 various things like yeah yeah
01:53:45 and i would disagree but obviously but
01:53:48 um
01:53:48 so my point is like people will ask
01:53:52 and they say well what does ever say
01:53:53 about this or what does he say about
01:53:54 that
01:53:55 well if if we were to try to get the
01:53:59 truth about joseph smith
01:54:00 from all the sources around him whether
01:54:03 in the church
01:54:04 or out of the church we would get the
01:54:07 wrong
01:54:08 picture rather than just taking joseph’s
01:54:10 word from himself
01:54:12 so sure and there’s things i i’ve i’ve
01:54:14 written about of things that have
01:54:15 actually come out of his mouth
01:54:17 um one i haven’t written about that you
01:54:19 guys may not care too much about but i
01:54:22 do
01:54:22 he’s anti-torah i’m pro-torah
01:54:26 oh yeah he is i’ve heard him say it in
01:54:29 one of his talks
01:54:30 well there’s some of the way that he he
01:54:33 teaches some of the things
01:54:34 chad that would be considered anti-torah
01:54:38 to somebody like stephen
01:54:40 and the he talks about it being done
01:54:42 away and actually i
01:54:43 actually have a recording of one i’ll
01:54:45 send it to you when we’re done
01:54:47 but just simply put somebody like
01:54:48 stephen will hear that quote
01:54:50 [Music]
01:54:51 and just be like nope that’s garbage and
01:54:56 the thing is people who don’t really
01:54:57 study the torah aren’t going to
01:54:59 catch stuff like that not that i’m i’m
01:55:02 as versatile and it’s funny because see
01:55:04 i’m stephen i’m like kind of in the
01:55:06 middle ground
01:55:07 with with you on that one where it’s
01:55:08 like i see the torrent as critical
01:55:10 lessons and you can’t say it’s garbage
01:55:13 like you cannot say that and be correct
01:55:15 like it has incredible value it is oh
01:55:18 yeah allah 37 is a prophecy how it will
01:55:20 continue to be a great value and show
01:55:24 people
01:55:25 their wickedness and their sins
01:55:28 but the thing is here on that point
01:55:30 though if we’re still not supposed to be
01:55:31 living
01:55:32 torah how could it be showing them of
01:55:33 their sins if that is not the standard
01:55:39 yeah no i think i explained it as far as
01:55:41 there being patterns
01:55:42 that will underlay everything and well
01:55:45 but then it wouldn’t be showing the
01:55:46 signs it would uh showing their sins it
01:55:49 would be showing
01:55:49 them the patterns well and that’s back
01:55:52 to the
01:55:53 the woman being killed aspect is like a
01:55:56 symbol
01:55:57 like when you do certain things on a
01:55:59 spiritual level you guys requirements
01:56:01 were not
01:56:02 um meant you’re not listening to my
01:56:04 point you’re busy making another one
01:56:06 what i’m trying to share with you
01:56:08 stephen is
01:56:09 the underpinnings of the the painting
01:56:12 that torah is trying to paint of trying
01:56:14 to get us to that target
01:56:15 like see my target up there that that
01:56:18 word picture that he’s trying to paint
01:56:21 is the thing that is completely
01:56:23 unchanging
01:56:24 and is is the point and that’s why well
01:56:28 if it’s completely unchanging if you say
01:56:30 you can’t you don’t have to keep
01:56:32 torah anymore how are you
01:56:35 keep saying to the original picture
01:56:38 because you’ve taken things away from it
01:56:40 and things that were requirements are
01:56:42 not now
01:56:43 it’s been changed well and that’s back
01:56:46 to
01:56:46 well yeah you’re good that’s that’s a
01:56:48 whole different rabbit hole but there
01:56:50 there is a way to see it i think you
01:56:52 actually understand what i’m saying
01:56:53 you just disagree with it and that’s
01:56:55 okay yeah i do and i do disagree with it
01:56:57 and i’m trying to
01:56:58 explain some more why i disagree with it
01:57:00 because you’re saying it
01:57:02 so if god has a different requirements
01:57:05 if a judge
01:57:07 i’ll start with this if a judge has a
01:57:08 different requirement for one person
01:57:10 than for another that is being a
01:57:12 respecter of a person
01:57:14 having different laws or requirements
01:57:16 for different people
01:57:17 is being a respecter of person and god
01:57:20 is a respecter
01:57:21 according to torah do you have to be
01:57:24 torn observant to go to heaven
01:57:28 um so mosiah
01:57:31 abinadi answers this and
01:57:34 what is it we can go look at it but
01:57:39 the remember he’s talking to an audience
01:57:42 i’m saying non-torah people
01:57:45 so this is the people that in the new
01:57:47 testament get referred to as laws unto
01:57:48 themselves
01:57:50 so they’re well
01:57:53 hey we’re saved by grace not by works
01:57:57 right exactly okay so but if we are
01:58:00 saved
01:58:01 we want to do his will and he’ll lead us
01:58:05 to it now i i do understand
01:58:09 even in my own life there’s been and
01:58:11 i’ve gone through a process
01:58:13 of waking up and learning and coming
01:58:17 to what i currently believe it didn’t
01:58:19 come to me all at once
01:58:21 right um and so the question is
01:58:26 are you actually open-hearted and
01:58:29 accepting and changing as god is giving
01:58:31 you things
01:58:32 or are you rejecting it because of false
01:58:34 traditions that you’re hanging on to
01:58:37 i think that’s what really comes into
01:58:39 play because
01:58:41 we’re not saved by our works or our
01:58:44 righteousness
01:58:44 we’re saved by christ’s righteousness
01:58:48 but at the same point we have to have a
01:58:50 country
01:58:51 contrite spirit and broken heart and if
01:58:54 we have those two things
01:58:56 we’re seeking to do his will
01:58:59 now what’s his will i’m might hear you
01:59:01 here
01:59:03 but along with that where are we in
01:59:06 unlearning the the false traditions
01:59:09 versus
01:59:09 true traditions or the the ancient path
01:59:12 and that is something only god can
01:59:14 answer that where
01:59:16 you’re where your heart is so to speak
01:59:18 right or what
01:59:19 are your true desires in that case
01:59:22 because i in my one post i talked about
01:59:25 already you know
01:59:26 holy spirit holy ghost the same i call
01:59:29 myself out how i
01:59:31 i pretty much was ignoring something god
01:59:34 gave me
01:59:35 because i liked the temple
01:59:39 but i still believe i was getting closer
01:59:41 in other areas so the question is
01:59:45 are you really repenting no matter where
01:59:48 you are in that process
01:59:49 and all the various different aspects or
01:59:53 are you just sticking with your false
01:59:55 traditions and saying i’m saved
01:59:57 and only god can answer that i can’t
02:00:01 okay so my question was very specific as
02:00:04 far as do you have to be torah observant
02:00:06 so somebody that and i did try to answer
02:00:08 it
02:00:09 i’m saying like somebody that doesn’t
02:00:11 know torah at all
02:00:13 can they be saved uh
02:00:16 so let’s take uh joseph smith’s brother
02:00:19 alvin as an example
02:00:20 he was saved and he wasn’t torah
02:00:22 compliant
02:00:24 and but the question is
02:00:27 if he got to the point where he was
02:00:30 taught torah
02:00:31 and accepted it or not is the way i see
02:00:33 it
02:00:34 and what i’m saying is is the reason
02:00:36 somebody like that is saved is because
02:00:38 they’re getting to the target
02:00:40 they’re actually torah is just the bow
02:00:43 shot
02:00:44 it’s what are you becoming as a person
02:00:47 that’s the point
02:00:48 that’s why god is telling us
02:00:52 how and how he wants us to do things
02:00:54 which then
02:00:55 changes us inside and that is i know
02:00:59 and that’s where what torah is is a
02:01:01 specific set of instructions
02:01:03 teaching a pattern to become
02:01:07 right but you can’t go off and
02:01:09 contradict it and say that you’re
02:01:10 becoming
02:01:12 that’s where it’s it’s a bow shot man
02:01:14 that’s where
02:01:15 it’s just a bow shot well and this is
02:01:18 giving us
02:01:19 because the book of mormon says it’s
02:01:20 always the same joseph smith says it’s
02:01:22 always the same
02:01:23 the underlying laws of all of those
02:01:26 lessons
02:01:27 are unchanging so you mentioned like
02:01:29 giving a role to your kids
02:01:31 like if i have a rule that my kids have
02:01:34 like
02:01:34 you know don’t run into the street well
02:01:37 there’s different places that that
02:01:39 that principle can be applied in
02:01:41 different ways
02:01:42 um and like i say it
02:01:45 i hear what you’re saying but eternal
02:01:47 law joseph smith said that
02:01:49 if a law came from god it’s eternal
02:01:53 and it’s always applying well so what
02:01:54 you’re saying is something that
02:01:56 only sometimes apply and actually here’s
02:01:59 an example though
02:02:00 is the the the torah laws were symbolic
02:02:04 and as a christian we recognize that
02:02:08 the laws were symbolically teaching and
02:02:11 guiding people
02:02:13 to christ it wasn’t about the blood
02:02:16 it wasn’t about the patterns that are
02:02:19 set forth and the way they’re supposed
02:02:20 to observe
02:02:21 passover it was teaching
02:02:24 a pattern and that’s what i’m saying
02:02:28 and i’m disagreeing with that and part
02:02:31 of the reason why i don’t consider
02:02:32 myself a christian anymore
02:02:34 ah okay there we go okay that’s why i
02:02:37 i consider myself a nazarene and you
02:02:39 probably didn’t catch it because you
02:02:40 probably don’t know
02:02:41 what i did that is yeah exactly and i i
02:02:44 was assuming something else and i
02:02:46 apologize
02:02:46 the kind of you you found you felt like
02:02:48 me like you’re kind of on the hebrew
02:02:50 roots type movement and i felt like yeah
02:02:52 you could describe him taking the vow
02:02:53 and all those different things you could
02:02:55 categorize that in
02:02:56 with me yeah i i’ll take the hebrews
02:02:58 roots movement
02:03:00 okay so hold on so
02:03:03 okay no no you’re just changing the
02:03:05 definition you believe jesus christ
02:03:07 yes but he is the way he’s the promised
02:03:09 messiah okay
02:03:11 no no we’re saying so nazarenes
02:03:14 so here’s a little nazarene is a sect of
02:03:18 judaism
02:03:19 around the time of jesus’s life that
02:03:21 believed that he was the promised
02:03:23 messiah
02:03:24 and they kept the law torah
02:03:27 after his resurrection uh
02:03:31 shoot man i remember right
02:03:35 say that again chamber in the temple
02:03:37 that’s the nazarene
02:03:39 judaism during the time of christ
02:03:43 probably a little before and it was way
02:03:45 before yeah
02:03:46 it’s a there’s a court in the temple
02:03:48 that’s named the it’s for the nazarene
02:03:49 vows where they come in
02:03:51 well no nazarene vow is different than
02:03:53 the nazarene sect okay
02:03:56 because jesus was the nazarene and he
02:03:59 drank wine
02:04:00 he did not take the nazarene vow okay
02:04:03 got it there there’s a difference in
02:04:05 most people who
02:04:06 oh right no excuse me nazarite nazarene
02:04:10 okay yeah they’re they’re they could be
02:04:12 somewhat related because
02:04:14 anyways um but a nazarene
02:04:17 is a sect of judaism um
02:04:21 the timing is i haven’t looked into it
02:04:24 but i would say probably a little bit
02:04:25 before christ or somewhere around
02:04:27 he started his mortal ministry or
02:04:28 something along those lines to
02:04:30 probably a couple hundred years a
02:04:31 hundred or maybe a couple hundred years
02:04:33 after his
02:04:34 resurrection and they believed that
02:04:37 jesus was the promised messiah
02:04:39 and they believed they needed to keep
02:04:41 torah and that’s what they did
02:04:43 in fact that’s all christianity was
02:04:46 originally
02:04:46 a jewish sect and that’s what they did
02:04:48 in fact acts 15
02:04:50 the council with these jewish i mean
02:04:53 gentile
02:04:54 converts part of the things that’s one
02:04:56 of the requirements for them to be
02:04:58 considered
02:04:59 um you know christian or whatever word
02:05:01 you want to use
02:05:02 for it where paul said
02:05:05 i mean he said a couple things but one
02:05:07 of the times he called himself the
02:05:08 nazarene himself
02:05:10 um was to go to
02:05:13 uh the synagogue on sabbath so that way
02:05:16 they will continue and learn
02:05:18 more and grow in the law
02:05:21 acts 15 last couple verses
02:05:25 so there’s some initial requirements
02:05:28 but they weren’t supposed to stop they
02:05:31 were supposed to keep growing
02:05:32 in it and keep learning and getting
02:05:35 better
02:05:37 yeah they were essentially still jews
02:05:42 totally now what i’m saying is that the
02:05:47 15 the gentile converts not not the jew
02:05:51 converts the gentile converts
02:05:53 they had to do a couple things initially
02:05:55 but then they were supposed to go to
02:05:56 church on sunday
02:05:58 and learn more and keep continuing to
02:06:01 learn and grow and follow the word
02:06:03 it wasn’t just this one time thing
02:06:05 you’re done and what they were teaching
02:06:07 there
02:06:08 was torah and tanakh so
02:06:12 galatians would be an interesting one to
02:06:15 discuss with you but honestly i got to
02:06:16 wrap it up now uh i’ll give you a
02:06:18 resource
02:06:19 um on that real quick 119 i went through
02:06:22 all of it you’re good
02:06:24 but it’s all on the audience on the way
02:06:27 that they address the audience 119
02:06:30 in their in their video goes back and
02:06:33 forth between
02:06:34 who’s the audience and it’s either the
02:06:36 audience’s jews
02:06:38 or the audience’s gentiles and i would
02:06:40 say the audience is all the
02:06:42 gentiles the whole the whole thing uh um
02:06:46 i don’t have all that memorized so i’d
02:06:48 have to review it because
02:06:49 that was what i studied a while back but
02:06:51 like i say
02:06:52 there is more of a differentiation there
02:06:54 but you’re good okay
02:06:55 i gotta run for now last thing i was
02:06:58 gonna say i didn’t get to finish that
02:06:59 but well mike can go and you can say
02:07:02 chad if you want
02:07:02 i want to hear what you have to say just
02:07:04 that with rob
02:07:06 because rob saw a lot of problems with
02:07:08 people who were going to the
02:07:10 snuffer talks and i’ll just say like
02:07:14 what well he sees his problem with
02:07:16 snuffer denver snuffer too
02:07:18 um well go ahead let’s let’s hear it i’m
02:07:20 sorry go ahead chad
02:07:21 go ahead and that’s fine um but
02:07:25 rob saw a lot of problems like people
02:07:27 worshipping
02:07:28 you know talk you know whether it was
02:07:30 false spirits
02:07:32 there were people who who accused
02:07:35 you know joseph of being a polygamist
02:07:37 and people accused denver of being a
02:07:39 polygamous even
02:07:40 after there are people who listened to
02:07:42 denver
02:07:43 followed him whatever you want to say
02:07:45 who believed denver stuff
02:07:47 but said he was still practicing
02:07:48 polygamy in secret
02:07:50 so the same things that happened with
02:07:52 joseph
02:07:54 happened with denver and so um
02:07:57 anyway so i think rob was looking at the
02:08:00 people there
02:08:01 and some of the false ideas and beliefs
02:08:03 they had
02:08:05 or some of the false things they said
02:08:08 or tried to try to restate maybe
02:08:10 something denver has
02:08:12 had said but regardless if you wanted to
02:08:16 if
02:08:16 if you want to pick over the things that
02:08:18 denver has actually said i would be
02:08:19 interested in that
02:08:20 oh that and it’s about a couple of posts
02:08:23 it’s things that you’ve actually said i
02:08:25 i i don’t know
02:08:26 just i mean there’s one post that
02:08:28 someone asked me to write that kind of
02:08:30 goes off of what
02:08:31 the followers do um
02:08:34 but i i do believe yeah i don’t care
02:08:35 about that well
02:08:37 um don’t read that one then but um like
02:08:40 my baptism order is based off of
02:08:42 something he said uh denver snuffer
02:08:46 for one said that the order of baptism
02:08:49 of fire
02:08:50 and water doesn’t matter the scriptures
02:08:52 say otherwise
02:08:54 human five which he tries to use to
02:08:57 prove that it doesn’t matter
02:08:58 actually prove it does matter when you
02:09:00 look at the consider the word decenter
02:09:15 all i try to say is like when people ask
02:09:17 me what about denver
02:09:18 this i’d love to go i’ll go over those
02:09:20 the stuff you write about
02:09:23 um i’m fine with that but i guess
02:09:27 the i don’t know i guess my point is
02:09:31 like like if you’re asking is one thing
02:09:34 and we shouldn’t be going off of that we
02:09:36 should go off of what we actually
02:09:38 taught yeah exactly i agree with that
02:09:41 uh but with rob he has issues with
02:09:44 denver
02:09:44 never teaches i know that we’re friends
02:09:47 and he he
02:09:48 has shown me some of the emails he has
02:09:50 had with denver sniffer back and forth
02:09:54 he specifically teaches not just what
02:09:56 people are saying
02:09:58 yeah well and that’s fine like if
02:10:00 they’re you know whatever those points
02:10:02 are i would be curious
02:10:05 i’ve talked about some of the ones that
02:10:08 i have
02:10:08 i’m wrong is not so
02:10:12 public about those things um
02:10:15 he has his reasons for it um and i
02:10:18 understand it
02:10:18 and i have mixed feelings about it
02:10:22 so he probably starts with me more
02:10:25 because
02:10:26 um maybe we’re friends i don’t know why
02:10:28 you share support
02:10:29 right right and that’s fine and i’ve had
02:10:30 some good conversations with rob
02:10:32 i probably should add him again on
02:10:33 facebook i i went through
02:10:36 i went through a lot in the last five
02:10:40 years so i just like unfriended everyone
02:10:43 because i think i think steven you and i
02:10:46 were friends at one point and i just
02:10:48 it was like i went from like 500 people
02:10:50 down to like 70.
02:10:51 you know uh i don’t remember that i i
02:10:54 know
02:10:55 i i’ve i i’ve had issues with people
02:10:59 yeah well no i wasn’t it wasn’t because
02:11:01 of that
02:11:03 i just i decided one day i’m only going
02:11:05 to keep people on facebook who i keep in
02:11:07 touch with
02:11:09 [Music]
02:11:12 so here here’s a little hint what i
02:11:15 ended up doing
02:11:16 uh and i probably started doing a little
02:11:17 too late because my feed probably got
02:11:20 messed up but
02:11:21 i accept friend requests from anybody
02:11:23 but what i’ve done the last
02:11:25 while i don’t know how long your couple
02:11:27 years is
02:11:28 if i don’t know them i don’t really care
02:11:30 i’ll look at their wall
02:11:31 see if it’s something i want to look at
02:11:33 or not if not i unfollow them so they
02:11:35 can be my friend like they want to be
02:11:37 but then i don’t see them in my feed
02:11:39 right
02:11:40 so i’m not protective who i’m friends
02:11:42 with on facebook i’m more protective of
02:11:44 what generally gets into my feed
02:11:46 on facebook yeah that makes sense well
02:11:48 anyhow
02:11:50 with all that said like and i i’m like
02:11:52 totally i’m in a position now
02:11:55 where like you know like when i
02:11:58 realized they’re from the church it took
02:12:00 me
02:12:02 three years to like come to grips with
02:12:05 the
02:12:05 idea that the leaders were like not
02:12:09 um what they what i assumed they were
02:12:13 right like that took me a long time i
02:12:14 knew there were problems in the church
02:12:16 but
02:12:16 anyway my point is once i kind of went
02:12:18 through that um
02:12:20 i’m to the point now where it’s like
02:12:23 um people talk about their bookshelf but
02:12:28 i’m more than willing to like take a
02:12:30 better truth and replace
02:12:32 some truth i hold so like anyone who has
02:12:35 wants to have a discussion or point out
02:12:37 things that denver has an air like i’m
02:12:40 more than willing
02:12:42 to like listen you know and
02:12:45 um well i have some there and if you
02:12:48 want
02:12:49 i i have notes in my one note about some
02:12:51 other things i’m
02:12:53 more than happy to dig up if you really
02:12:54 want to talk about it
02:12:56 um either way just i guess just
02:13:00 you know i’ll start with what you
02:13:01 already have there with what you’ve
02:13:03 already sent
02:13:04 um and then
02:13:08 go ahead i was just gonna say steven
02:13:10 send
02:13:11 him anything that specifically is like
02:13:14 showing how denver is oh yeah that’s
02:13:16 what i focus on
02:13:17 i think okay great because that’s the
02:13:19 thing that i don’t know if you guys
02:13:21 looked in my
02:13:21 blog post i’m pretty careful of what
02:13:24 i think that’s that’s fine i’m just
02:13:26 trying to clarify what i think would be
02:13:27 most helpful
02:13:28 oh sure yeah i go off the things that
02:13:30 he’s actually stated
02:13:32 i may not oh sorry i was just gonna say
02:13:35 is there a way to copy all the chat
02:13:37 so we don’t lose it uh yeah i’m copying
02:13:39 it and i
02:13:40 all the links i’ll be putting in the um
02:13:43 youtube
02:13:44 description um so that other people can
02:13:47 get reference to them
02:13:50 i’m more than interested
02:13:56 to go through because of me like i know
02:13:59 there’s issues like you guys talked
02:14:00 about the deuteronomy stuff
02:14:02 and so if he goes to the jews
02:14:05 as he has his next um
02:14:08 focus well that’s joseph is
02:14:12 part of right right
02:14:15 well as far as we know i haven’t heard
02:14:17 never directly
02:14:19 i haven’t heard denver directly
02:14:23 validate it yet um but
02:14:26 but um there are people who say he was
02:14:28 involved in the project
02:14:29 i don’t know if that’s true i’m like i’m
02:14:32 to that point now where like i don’t
02:14:33 believe anybody
02:14:34 i know more written and i can’t say
02:14:38 any more than what i’ve written because
02:14:39 of promises i’ve made
02:14:44 i i lose things in that post
02:14:47 okay well anyway my point is
02:14:51 if his see and i’ve been wanting to ask
02:14:54 him essentially like mike’s question
02:14:56 which is first name by 13 20 whatever
02:14:59 four or five
02:15:00 you know how do you how can you say the
02:15:03 deuteronomy thing if the book of mormon
02:15:05 says this right
02:15:06 which that comes from angel so that’s a
02:15:08 good point
02:15:09 so he has to have an answer for that
02:15:11 even to the jew right
02:15:13 his message is going to the jews then i
02:15:15 want to ask him well how are you going
02:15:16 to deal with this
02:15:18 um anyway the ones that i i know were
02:15:20 possibly the jews
02:15:22 i actually believe the jews put in is
02:15:24 the genealogies but that doesn’t really
02:15:26 go to the core of the message
02:15:28 of the torah and so i could see that
02:15:31 could still be fit into
02:15:32 purity because when you start looking
02:15:35 how
02:15:36 um you know torah was copied back in the
02:15:38 days
02:15:41 honest accidents happen in fact
02:15:47 nahemia was talking about how current
02:15:50 scribes they’ll have a little sheet of
02:15:52 paper like this
02:15:54 uh with the words on it that they’re
02:15:56 supposed to write down because they’re
02:15:58 still copying it
02:15:59 so that way they don’t have to go back
02:16:00 like this back and forth so that way
02:16:02 they’re less likely to do
02:16:03 copyers right even with the printed
02:16:06 line right there they still make errors
02:16:10 well i know the scripture uh
02:16:14 project i think they figured out that
02:16:17 the
02:16:18 book of mormon the original transcript
02:16:20 when they just went through it this last
02:16:21 time they said it was one and a half
02:16:22 errors per page
02:16:24 that they found um yeah so anyway
02:16:28 so royal scouts yeah tons of research on
02:16:31 that
02:16:31 long before they did and i remember when
02:16:34 they were it was part of the new project
02:16:36 royal skeleton yeah they used a lot of
02:16:39 his work
02:16:40 oh that’s weird because i suggested that
02:16:43 they do that and i was always
02:16:45 told i didn’t know what i was talking
02:16:46 about um who told me that
02:16:48 lots of people well you know apparently
02:16:52 i listened to you stephen
02:16:54 who would likely be listening to you oh
02:16:56 i i don’t remember the names and i
02:16:58 didn’t make notes on it but i do
02:17:00 remember some of them
02:17:01 were on the scripture committee but i
02:17:03 don’t remember the names and i didn’t
02:17:04 make notes so you’re going to have to
02:17:05 take my word for it
02:17:06 sorry yeah and that’s fine like i made
02:17:08 some suggestions that they
02:17:10 didn’t didn’t take either but one thing
02:17:14 i
02:17:14 also don’t like is how they claim
02:17:16 they’ve got more jst
02:17:18 than anybody else but they don’t give
02:17:20 any references for it
02:17:22 where um let me go i can find the video
02:17:25 but there was a video
02:17:27 by some people other people because i’m
02:17:30 not the only one that believes in book
02:17:31 of mormon
02:17:31 and torah there’s there’s a few of us
02:17:34 and
02:17:35 there was one done by let me
02:17:38 hold on and i really like oh charlotte
02:17:41 erickson
02:17:42 that gives resources uh yeah
02:17:46 uh for the jsts um
02:17:49 and there’s i have the video for it
02:17:52 there um in the notes but you can go
02:17:55 watch that
02:17:56 and she gives books that i some
02:17:58 additional books i don’t have on the gst
02:18:00 i want to get
02:18:01 that i think the scripture committee
02:18:03 used
02:18:04 but weren’t honest about using and
02:18:06 because they weren’t giving
02:18:07 citations for it but this book has all
02:18:10 the citation ones
02:18:11 all of them all to do with the ones that
02:18:14 they talk about this
02:18:15 scriptural committee they talk about oh
02:18:16 they parsed other talks and
02:18:18 lectures from joseph smith and got him
02:18:20 for that this book does that
02:18:22 i believe they used that book and
02:18:24 weren’t honest about it
02:18:25 but my personal opinion oh i don’t know
02:18:29 well then maybe that’s if if they did it
02:18:32 themselves
02:18:33 they should get the resources and be
02:18:35 open and honest about it interesting
02:18:38 hey guys i gotta run thank you for your
02:18:40 time everyone
02:18:41 have a good day take care mike see ya
02:18:45 i don’t know that i mean do they claim
02:18:48 that
02:18:48 um i don’t know
02:18:52 yeah this the scripture committee claims
02:18:54 that they have more jst than anybody
02:18:56 else but they don’t
02:18:57 give any references to where they’re
02:18:59 getting it from you just have to take
02:19:01 their word for it
02:19:02 because if they would actually give
02:19:04 references
02:19:05 to where their claim gsts are coming
02:19:08 from i’d be more interested
02:19:09 in looking at that scripture project but
02:19:11 they don’t
02:19:13 trust them
02:19:16 yeah that’s interesting they should be
02:19:18 transparent
02:19:20 about what’s going on and they’re not um
02:19:23 yeah where this book that
02:19:24 um i just forgot her name again
02:19:27 um charlotte erickson um
02:19:30 brings out i mean she brings out a
02:19:32 couple but one i think really fits the
02:19:34 bill for what
02:19:35 the snuff rights claim on their jst
02:19:38 stuff it gives all the references all of
02:19:41 them
02:19:42 when i get back in the states that’s one
02:19:44 of the first books i’m buying
02:19:47 uh what’s it called again or the what’s
02:19:48 her name again chris
02:19:50 uh it’s uh charlotte erickson
02:19:53 uh and it was from a torah book of
02:19:56 mormon believing conference that
02:19:58 she gave this talk in and i i put the
02:20:01 link to the video
02:20:02 in the chat i’ll put it in the youtube
02:20:04 description if you can’t
02:20:06 figure out how to get to the chats notes
02:20:09 um okay but
02:20:12 um that has so yeah i mean
02:20:15 where the snuff rights don’t give
02:20:16 sources
02:20:18 yeah i don’t know um i wasn’t involved
02:20:22 in that so i don’t know you don’t have
02:20:23 to be involved you can just ask them
02:20:25 where’s the if they’re being transparent
02:20:29 and being able to show what they’re
02:20:31 doing is accurate they should be able to
02:20:32 give the sources
02:20:34 right not showing that you have to take
02:20:37 their word for it
02:20:39 where this book that is i mean there’s a
02:20:41 couple of them but there’s one in
02:20:42 specific i have to
02:20:44 watch to get to know for sure which one
02:20:45 it is um
02:20:47 but it gets all the references on this
02:20:50 from the lectures
02:20:52 and talks and articles that he wrote
02:20:55 that the snuff rights are claiming that
02:20:57 they have this book has it
02:20:59 references where the stuff rights are
02:21:01 not giving references
02:21:03 you just have to take their word for it
02:21:05 which makes me to believe
02:21:06 if they do have it they’re using this
02:21:08 book as the as a reference
02:21:10 piece and they’re not sharing that
02:21:12 because that would get rid of their
02:21:13 credibility
02:21:16 because you they want in my opinion they
02:21:19 want to be the ones
02:21:20 that you need fact
02:21:24 endeavor snuffer in the beginning he
02:21:26 would claim he’s getting these
02:21:27 revelations
02:21:28 but then he’s giving his own personal
02:21:30 interpretation understanding of it he’s
02:21:32 never saying thus saith the lord
02:21:34 but yet he claims he wants us to go to
02:21:37 the lord
02:21:38 but when he’s only giving his
02:21:40 understanding of the revelation
02:21:42 there is no other source than him to
02:21:45 depend on
02:21:46 to to understand what the supposed thus
02:21:49 says the lord
02:21:50 that he got if he didn’t want us to
02:21:53 depend on him
02:21:54 give us the thus saith the lord that god
02:21:56 said
02:21:57 and let us read it and interpret it in
02:21:59 fact moroni 8 is my favorite example
02:22:02 from the book of mormon
02:22:03 where mormon prayed because of you know
02:22:06 baptizing
02:22:06 of little children he god thus saith the
02:22:09 lord
02:22:10 he gives us to the saith the lord and
02:22:11 then he expounds us to help
02:22:13 make sure that we understand it more he
02:22:14 did both
02:22:16 denver at least at the beginning only
02:22:18 did the latter he only gave his
02:22:20 interpretation and understanding of it
02:22:21 he didn’t give the actual words
02:22:23 which makes it you have to be dependent
02:22:25 upon him
02:22:28 but he didn’t give the actual words he
02:22:30 didn’t say thus saith the lord he gave
02:22:32 his interpretation
02:22:33 of the words he didn’t give us the
02:22:35 actual words that god
02:22:36 that he claimed god said
02:22:40 which makes us dependent upon his
02:22:41 interpretation
02:22:44 which which where which are you speaking
02:22:47 of do you know
02:22:49 all over in the beginning i mean all
02:22:51 over his 10 talks
02:22:52 just all these things that he’s claiming
02:22:54 he’s getting from god he doesn’t give us
02:22:56 the actual words
02:22:58 it’s only been recent since the and
02:23:01 maybe since then but the his
02:23:03 supposed covenant he did do
02:23:06 thus saith the lord right but before
02:23:09 that he didn’t
02:23:10 where he gave that was the first time
02:23:13 that i’m aware of that he
02:23:14 actually gave direct words from or
02:23:17 suppose direct words
02:23:18 from god before the attack
02:23:22 yeah the tenth talk he does but not
02:23:24 interested in seeing what that
02:23:26 is uh yeah it’s
02:23:30 it’s uh is it the one about the seven
02:23:33 women
02:23:34 because that’s not really quite the same
02:23:36 of the lord
02:23:38 no um that’s part of it i believe
02:23:42 i don’t know i haven’t listened to that
02:23:43 one for a little bit so that’s fine
02:23:46 i haven’t listened to any of them
02:23:47 probably a lot longer than you have
02:23:49 because i still stop giving it credence
02:23:52 but
02:23:53 i’ll tell you when i first learned about
02:23:55 them i listened to those talks in the
02:23:57 showers
02:23:58 and while i was doing chores outside
02:24:00 trying to understand
02:24:01 but in addition i was studying
02:24:03 scriptures and i was starting to see
02:24:04 contradictions so i i gave him
02:24:08 a good amount of effort to see if he
02:24:11 was what he claimed to be and i i came
02:24:13 to the conclusion he wasn’t
02:24:17 i just think um someone’s got to write
02:24:20 you know at the end of the day someone
02:24:22 has to rise up and do a work
02:24:23 um sure to gather israel
02:24:26 and part of that work is being a leader
02:24:29 right
02:24:30 and he’s not yeah you don’t think
02:24:34 no he he keeps saying what does he say
02:24:39 uh he said quite a lot i mean
02:24:42 he’s not being a leader he’s not
02:24:44 organizing an assembly or church or
02:24:46 whatever you want to call it
02:24:49 well yeah he’s because he’s spoken
02:24:51 against that um
02:24:52 scriptures teach for it i mean torah
02:24:54 speaks for an assembly
02:24:56 church or organization whatever word you
02:24:58 want to use it but it speaks for
02:24:59 leadership
02:25:00 book of mormon speaks for leadership
02:25:02 book of mormon
02:25:03 the dnc speaks for leadership he’s not
02:25:05 doing leadership
02:25:07 in the structure of church that’s in the
02:25:08 scriptures
02:25:10 but all of those things never led to
02:25:12 zion
02:25:13 but it’s god’s law
02:25:17 well and that’s where i say how it
02:25:19 should be done
02:25:20 i mean are we supposed to abide by the
02:25:22 the book of mormon the book of mormon
02:25:23 teaches we’re supposed to have bishops
02:25:25 slash judges
02:25:29 well where is that okay dnc says the
02:25:32 same thing
02:25:34 where is that do you not think that dnc
02:25:36 applies now because deborah snuffer is
02:25:38 in charge
02:25:39 no i i i believe quite a bit of those
02:25:42 things too for sure well then
02:25:43 where’s the bishops
02:25:47 where were the bishops with enoch and
02:25:50 melchizedek
02:25:52 just because it doesn’t stay them
02:25:54 doesn’t mean they’re not there
02:25:55 but um melchizedek went to abraham
02:25:59 and abraham gave ties and who collects
02:26:01 ties bishops so i think if
02:26:03 by applying substitutions and knowing
02:26:06 what the concepts that are going on even
02:26:08 though it doesn’t exactly say bishops or
02:26:09 judges
02:26:10 that’s it’s there because who collects
02:26:13 it
02:26:14 bishops and bishops or judges bishops
02:26:16 and judges is a
02:26:17 different word for the same person right
02:26:20 so speak
02:26:21 bishop’s a judge in israel i get it um
02:26:26 yeah i mean that’s interesting but
02:26:30 at the end of the day like
02:26:33 and that’s where you know i don’t
02:26:37 yeah i get the the idea of the torah in
02:26:40 the law and those things that were put
02:26:41 in place
02:26:43 but you know this is kind of like what
02:26:46 denver talks about
02:26:48 dnc talks about leadership in bishops
02:26:50 why hasn’t he done that
02:26:54 um well because he teaches it of a flat
02:26:58 that there are no so the dnc teaches a
02:27:01 flat organization
02:27:02 too it’s the dnc the elders church is
02:27:04 completely contrary to the organization
02:27:07 oh i totally agree with that my
02:27:10 latest big post gets into a lot of
02:27:12 details on that well maybe not a lot but
02:27:15 a few because of a i was working on the
02:27:17 post and i came across
02:27:18 a verse in the book of mormon it talks
02:27:21 about how
02:27:23 the lamanites when someone died the next
02:27:27 in
02:27:27 power uh became the one and first in
02:27:30 power
02:27:31 and that’s what the ledge does and so i
02:27:34 used that to
02:27:35 um bring in some other aspects and how
02:27:37 they’re contradicting
02:27:39 uh the church organization according to
02:27:41 the scriptures um
02:27:44 and i learned some things from doing
02:27:46 some additional research also
02:27:47 but anyways
02:27:51 that’s where denver but denver talks
02:27:54 about
02:27:54 how the church was initially patterned
02:27:57 after
02:28:00 what christ did and christ was
02:28:01 organizing after the pattern of the
02:28:04 family of abraham
02:28:06 you know the apostles and they were
02:28:08 missionaries um
02:28:10 and in acts 15 going back i’m
02:28:13 bringing this one up a couple times
02:28:15 right but acts 15 who made the decision
02:28:18 it was uh jesus’s brother james
02:28:21 he was the bishop it was not the twelve
02:28:24 the bishop
02:28:26 he was the you could say the high priest
02:28:29 because
02:28:30 um bishops and judges are the same thing
02:28:33 but anyways
02:28:34 um i still need to do some a little more
02:28:36 clarifications on some of this for my
02:28:38 own uh reasons to better understand it
02:28:41 but
02:28:42 james was the bishop and he was the head
02:28:44 bishop or the high priest
02:28:46 one over the bishops and he’s the one
02:28:48 that made the decision
02:28:49 not the 12. yeah well
02:28:53 that’s and that actually goes along with
02:28:55 what’s going on within the dnc too
02:28:57 because the 12
02:28:58 have authority in the missionary field
02:29:00 which is what they did
02:29:02 but in the church it’s james
02:29:05 that had the authority so
02:29:09 the they’re equal
02:29:12 in different areas and that’s what the
02:29:14 dnc
02:29:15 teaches and that’s what i see in the new
02:29:17 testament
02:29:19 right they were all supposed to be equal
02:29:22 the the seventy the state presidents
02:29:26 their um areas
02:29:29 right because the twelve have no right
02:29:32 to govern anything
02:29:34 in the church they only have the same
02:29:36 rights
02:29:38 in the missionary field not in the
02:29:41 church
02:29:42 that’s where they’re equal they’re equal
02:29:44 in their rights and responsibilities
02:29:45 in their district or the area or the
02:29:48 people that they’re working with
02:29:50 yeah well that’s where um
02:29:55 see and that’s i guess for me
02:29:59 uh you know when i look at what joseph
02:30:01 smith was doing
02:30:03 um i don’t think joseph because i’m i’m
02:30:06 looking at what joseph smith is doing
02:30:08 too so what lens the lds lens or
02:30:11 because i in my latest i’ll give you the
02:30:14 link but the latest post
02:30:16 or latest major post because my latest
02:30:20 one is kind of a
02:30:21 small one um
02:30:24 i get into some details and a quote from
02:30:27 emma and how the leadership
02:30:29 is done by common consent and for those
02:30:31 who
02:30:32 are in in the high i forget that the
02:30:35 term but
02:30:36 the the high council they
02:30:40 those who were eligible to be the
02:30:42 president had to be voted on those who
02:30:44 were in this high
02:30:45 council and the 12 weren’t in the high
02:30:47 council
02:30:49 yeah and that’s completely different to
02:30:53 what
02:30:54 the elders church teaches and i i
02:30:56 believe that post
02:30:58 has a quote from emma on that if not i
02:31:00 give resources that
02:31:02 do if it’s not in there i have it in my
02:31:05 notes but i’m
02:31:06 but here i can look real quick i can
02:31:08 just probably search emma
02:31:09 [Music]
02:31:11 uh and find it
02:31:14 um oh
02:31:17 here’s
02:31:21 oh
02:31:24 can you see chat yeah because i just put
02:31:26 it in the chair
02:31:28 oh okay um
02:31:31 it’s
02:31:35 yeah that’s that’s going to be the quote
02:31:42 i’ll just read it for those who’s um
02:31:45 listening but
02:31:46 whereas it is the business of the first
02:31:48 presidency more
02:31:49 particularly to govern the church at
02:31:51 zion and the members abroad
02:31:54 have a right to a quorum from the
02:31:56 decisions of the twelve
02:31:57 abroad missionary work now the twelve
02:32:00 have
02:32:00 no power with regard to the government
02:32:02 of the church in the state of zions
02:32:04 which is also in the dnc
02:32:05 but the high council i guess i remember
02:32:07 that term right
02:32:08 have all the power so it follows that on
02:32:12 removal of the first
02:32:13 president the office would devolve under
02:32:17 the president of the high council of
02:32:19 zion as the first
02:32:20 president always resides there
02:32:24 that this is the proper place for the
02:32:26 quorum which he is ahead
02:32:27 thus there would be no schism or jarring
02:32:30 but the 12
02:32:31 would attend to their duties in the
02:32:33 world meaning the missionary work
02:32:35 and not to meddle with the government of
02:32:38 the church at
02:32:39 home and the high council on zion and
02:32:42 the first pregnancy would attend to
02:32:43 their business in the same place
02:32:45 mr rigdon is not the proper successor of
02:32:48 president smith being only his counselor
02:32:52 the elder mark should be the individual
02:32:55 as he was not
02:32:56 only his counselor at the time his
02:32:58 deaths but also the president of the
02:32:59 high council emma smith to james and
02:33:03 more quoted by ill neil
02:33:06 avery joseph enigma emma
02:33:10 smith hale pages 206 to 207
02:33:13 sequin um so there’s a little part on
02:33:16 that i
02:33:17 slightly disagree in that it’s
02:33:20 those in the high council that need to
02:33:23 get voted in to be
02:33:24 the president um so i don’t take that
02:33:27 quote as
02:33:28 a hundred percent but a lot closer to
02:33:32 the truth and what the earliest church
02:33:34 teaches
02:33:35 yeah i’m not interested i don’t care
02:33:37 about what that what the church teaches
02:33:39 um so like to me so it goes to
02:33:46 to me my point of view is with when
02:33:49 joseph was visited by
02:33:51 we’ll call it the angel wow or nephi
02:33:55 i i’ve seen yeah i i’m more inclined to
02:33:58 think moroni but i do know what while
02:34:00 you’re saying angel
02:34:02 yeah so anyhow regardless
02:34:05 when he quotes um malachi
02:34:09 that they that come will burn them and
02:34:12 that we must turn and connect to the
02:34:13 fathers
02:34:14 to me that’s what’s yeah in in in that
02:34:17 post and so i talked about
02:34:18 that quote in my um ceiling power post
02:34:22 i’ll give you about it’s about returning
02:34:25 to the covenants of the fathers
02:34:27 is the way that is quoted so that’s the
02:34:30 covenants of the father and what is that
02:34:32 that’s
02:34:32 that’s in torah
02:34:36 where do we learn about the covenants
02:34:37 given to the fathers it’s
02:34:39 torah well abraham talks about it
02:34:43 and that was before torah well i believe
02:34:46 with abraham abraham had torah it just
02:34:49 wasn’t written down yet
02:34:50 and where this i don’t know if you’re on
02:34:51 the call this time but i did
02:34:54 earlier i talk about how moses was a
02:34:56 restorer
02:34:58 what was this degree anything new so
02:35:01 torah was there before but
02:35:04 and he tried to get them to
02:35:08 in the doctrine covenants 84 says that
02:35:12 the people rejected the higher law so
02:35:14 they were given
02:35:16 something else right they were given a
02:35:18 carnal law but it was not
02:35:20 in instead of it was in addition
02:35:24 to they still had to do torah and i
02:35:26 don’t know where he i don’t remember he
02:35:27 got in the line
02:35:29 but earlier i was talking about how i
02:35:31 believe
02:35:32 the performances and ordinances the
02:35:35 daily performance and ordinances
02:35:37 are is the carnal part that was added
02:35:40 and i believe i can use book mormon
02:35:42 verses to support that
02:35:44 well and that’s fine my my point is i
02:35:47 feel like joseph was initially trying to
02:35:49 do something
02:35:50 that harkened back before a new
02:35:54 testament church
02:35:55 that it was from the first fathers
02:35:59 and but so new testament
02:36:03 and torah has leaders and if
02:36:06 moses was just a restorer
02:36:10 there’s leaders um there’s leadership in
02:36:13 god’s assembly
02:36:15 well moses but
02:36:18 to me if you look at the description of
02:36:20 the new jerusalem
02:36:21 christ dwells there true and that
02:36:24 doesn’t mean there is
02:36:25 no us other leaders in fact
02:36:28 if i don’t know where it is and so i’m
02:36:31 just going off a rough memory
02:36:32 uh ephraim is to teach the law and
02:36:36 judas to judge the law
02:36:39 yeah for one shall go from zion shall go
02:36:42 forth
02:36:44 in jerusalem with the law right those
02:36:47 are
02:36:47 obsessions in leadership
02:37:00 i’m talking about other people in christ
02:37:03 he’s not
02:37:04 christ is not going to reign and then go
02:37:07 do what moses did initially
02:37:08 go judge everybody individually
02:37:12 like moses did war mores us out and
02:37:14 especially
02:37:15 here in the world that’s not possible
02:37:17 for one person to do that he’s going to
02:37:19 have others be doing it underneath him
02:37:22 because there’s still going to be
02:37:23 problems coming up and judges are still
02:37:25 going to be
02:37:30 needed
02:37:41 hey