Below is a recording of the bishop and his two counselors, from the local ward of the LDS / Brighamite church, interviewing me to see if they would allow me to visit the ward. I was told I was not allowed to visit the ward.

The reasons for not allowing me to attend, are evident in the recording. One being, that I don’t believe who they claim to be prophets, seers and revelators. I asked multiple times for the bishop and counselors to share with me the fruits of the titles of them who they believe to be their leaders, such that I could study it out and then pray about it as Yeshua / Jesus has stated to do. No fruits were offered. In fact a double standard of their fruits and my fruits were applied, in that I was told I needed to look for their fruits (which I stated I had and found none) where they would not look for mine. Below is a quote from In Honor of Today and Yesterday, where I have talked about this previously.

In Matt 7:15-20 Jesus teaches us that we shall know prophets by their fruits. Matt 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Jesus did not say you shall know their fruits of being a prophet after you believe you believe they are a prophet. On the contrary, Jesus is showing us one important principle of not being deceived. Before you can know that some is the title that they claim to have from God, you must know of their fruits. We must have knowledge of the fruits of the title before we can study it out in our minds before we take it to the Lord for confirmation that the title comes from Him, see D&C 9:8.
In Honor of Today and Yesterday

Through out the interrogation, I brought out how I would like to meet with others who believe that Joseph Smith is a holy prophet called of YHWH, and who believe in the Book of Mormon and most of the Doctrine and Covenants, as there are sections I don’t believe which I list at Doctrine and Covenants. Although the LDS / Brighamite church says they study the scriptures, the bishop and his counselors showed the real focus is studying the words of their living leaders. Which has been stated in LDS / Brighamite General Conference in the talk A Living Prophet for the Latter Days by Allen D Haynie of the Seventy. Below are a few quotes from his talk:

The doctrine and principles that we must follow to survive spiritually and endure physically are found in the words of a living prophet.

So the key is to follow the living prophet.

Brothers and sisters, unlike vintage comic books and classic cars, prophetic teachings do not become more valuable with age. That is why we should not seek to use the words of past prophets to dismiss the teachings of living prophets.

President Oaks responded, with a smile on his face, “Well, Allen, you need to follow the prophet.”

The rising generation is growing up in a time when there are more fig leaves and there is more heat. That reality imposes a weightier responsibility on the already risen generation, particularly when it comes to following prophetic counsel. When parents ignore the counsel of the living prophet, they not only lose the promised blessings for themselves but even more tragically teach their children that what a prophet says is insignificant or that prophetic counsel can be picked through in a smorgasbord fashion without concern for the resulting spiritual malnutrition.

As a generation that has the sacred charge to prepare the rising generation for its prophesied role in the latter days, which role must be fulfilled in a time when the adversary’s influence is at its peak, we cannot be a source of confusion about the importance of following prophetic counsel. It is that very counsel that will allow the rising generation to see “the enemy while he [is] yet afar off; and then [they can make] ready” to withstand the enemy’s attack. Our seemingly small deviations, quiet neglect, or whispered criticisms in response to prophetic counsel may result in our only walking dangerously near the edge of the covenant path; but when magnified by the adversary in the lives of the rising generation, such actions may influence them to leave that path altogether. Such a result is a generational price that is too high.

Some of you may feel you have fallen short in your efforts to follow the counsel of President Russell M. Nelson. If that is the case, then repent; begin again to follow the counsel of God’s chosen prophet. Set aside the distraction of childish cartoons and trust the Lord’s anointed. Rejoice because once again “there is a prophet in Israel.”

A Living Prophet for the Latter Days by Allen D Haynie of the Seventy

Before you go and say, well, that is just what one person in the quorm of the seventy said, you should know that the talks are vetted today, and when someone says something during an LDS / Brighamite General Conference that they don’t like, the LDS / Brighamite church will fix it, and yes they have done this with a General Conference talk of Ronald E Poelman which even his Wikipedia article brings out see Ronald E Poelman, Wikipedia. I first learned of this while reading The Best Conference Talk You Never Read. Below are some poignant quotes from The Best Conference Talk You Never Read:

It was in October conference of that year that Elder Ronald E. Poelman of the First Quorum of the Seventy delivered an address that was hailed by many members as one of the best conference talks they had ever heard.
But the following month when those members picked up the conference issue of The Ensign magazine to read the text of the speech, they were baffled to find that the words on paper bore little resemblance to the televised talk they thought they remembered hearing the month before. What’s more, anyone seeking the video record of Elder Poelman’s talk would find that Poelman’s segment had been pulled from the official Church archives and replaced with a counterfeit.
Thus one of the most interesting -and some would say most important- conference talks of the latter half of the twentieth century simply disappeared down the memory hole.
You’ll remember that George Orwell first coined the term the memory hole in his novel 1984 to describe what became of information deemed unworthy by The Powers That Be. Whenever a particular truth interfered with the reality put forth by Big Brother, a new version of “truth” was created to replace it. The old evidence was dropped into a slot leading to a series of pneumatic tubes, “whereupon it would be whirled away on a current of warm air to the enormous furnaces which were hidden somewhere in the recesses of the building.”
What had once been common history gradually faded from the collective memory. Eventually it was forgotten altogether.

Elder Poelman began his talk by reminding the congregation that there is an important difference between the gospel and the Church. “There is a distinction between them which is significant”, he said, “and it is very important that this distinction be understood.”
Poelman cautioned that failure to distinguish between the two, and to comprehend their proper relationship, could lead to “confusion and misplaced priorities”.

Elder Poelman admonished the congregation to remain mindful that every church member has not only the right, but also the obligation to exercise his free agency and receive a personal witness not only of gospel principles, but also of Church practices. “In response to study, prayer and by the influence of the Holy Spirit we may seek and obtain an individual, personal witness that the principle or counsel is correct and divinely inspired.

The Best Conference Talk You Never Read

There are various places to find the differences in Ronald E Poelman’s modifed talk. Ronald E Poelman Censored is a YouTube video of it.

The following table I saved from http://www.lds-mormon.com/poelman.shtml which is no longer working. I am only using red highlighting to show the changes.

Conference Version	Version Published in the Ensign and on Video Tape
Both the gospel of Jesus Christ and the Church of Jesus Christ are true and divine.	Both the gospel of Jesus Christ and the Church of Jesus Christ are true and divine,
However, there is a distinction between them which is significant and it is very important that this distinction be understood.	and there is an essential relationship between them that is significant and very important.
Of equal importance is understanding the essential relationship between the gospel and the Church. Failure to distinguish between the two and to comprehend their proper relationship may lead to confusion and misplaced priorities with unrealistic and therefore failed expectations. This in turn may result in diminished benefits and blessings and, in extreme instances, even disaffections.	Understanding the proper relationship between the gospel and the Church will prevent confusion, misplaced priorities, and failed expectations and will lead to the realization of gospel goals through happy, fulfilling participation in the Church. Such understanding will avoid possible disaffection and will result in great personal blessings.
As I attempt to describe and comment upon some distinguishing characteristics of the gospel and of the Church, at the same time noting their essential relationships, it is my prayer that a perspective may be developed which will enhance the influence of both the gospel and the Church in our lives.	As I attempt to describe and comment upon the essential relationship between the gospel and the Church it is my prayer that a perspective may be developed which will enhance the influence of both the gospel and the Church in our lives.
The gospel of Jesus Christ is a divine and perfect plan. It is composed of eternal, unchanging principles and laws which are universally applicable to every individual regardless of time, place, or circumstance.	The gospel of Jesus Christ is a divine and perfect plan. It is composed of eternal, unchanging principles, laws, and ordinances which are universally applicable to every individual regardless of time, place, or circumstance.
The principles and laws of the gospel never change.	Gospel principles never change.
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is a divine institution administered by the priesthood of God.	The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the kingdom of God on Earth administered by the priesthood of God.
The Church has authority to teach correctly the principles and doctrines of the gospel and to administer its essential ordinances.	The Church has the authority to teach correctly the principles and doctrines of the gospel and to administer its essential ordinances.
The gospel is the substance of the divine plan for personal, individual salvation and exaltation. The Church is the delivery system that provides the means and resources to implement this plan in each individual’s life.	The gospel is the divine plan for personal, individual salvation and exaltation. The Church is divinely commissioned to provide the means and resources that implement this plan in each individual’s life.
Procedures programs and policies are developed within the Church to help us realize gospel blessings according to our individual capacity and circumstances. Under divine direction, these policies, programs, and procedures do change from time to time as necessary to fulfill gospel purposes.	Procedures programs and policies are developed within the Church to help us realize gospel blessings according to our individual capacity and circumstances. Under divine direction, these policies, programs, and procedures may be changed from time to time as necessary to fulfill gospel purposes.
Underlying every aspect of Church administration and activity are the revealed eternal principles as contained in the scriptures. .	Underlying every aspect of Church administration and activity are the revealed eternal principles as contained in the scriptures.
As individually and collectively we increase our knowledge, acceptance, and application of gospel principles, we become less dependent on Church programs. Our lives become gospel centered.	As individually and collectively we increase our knowledge, acceptance, and application of gospel principles, we can more effectively utilize the Church to make our lives more gospel centered.
Sometimes traditions, customs, social practices and personal preferences of individual Church members may, through repeated or common usage be misconstrued as Church procedures or policies. Occasionally, such traditions, customs and practices may even be regarded by some as eternal gospel principles. Under such circumstances those who do not conform to these cultural standards may mistakenly be regarded as unorthodox or even unworthy. In fact, the eternal principles of the gospel and the divinely inspired Church do accommodate a broad spectrum of individual uniqueness and cultural diversity.	The eternal principles of the gospel implemented through the divinely inspired Church apply to a wide variety of individuals in diverse cultures.
The conformity we require should be according to God’s standards.	Therefore, as we live the gospel and participate in the Church, the conformity we require of ourselves and of others should be according to God’s standards.
The orthodoxy upon which we insist must be founded in fundamental principles and eternal law, including free agency and the divine uniqueness of the individual.	The orthodoxy upon which we insist must be founded in fundamental principles, eternal law, and direction given by those authorized in the Church.
It is important therefore to know the difference between eternal gospel principles which are unchanging, universally applicable and cultural norms which may vary with time and circumstance.
The source of this perspective is found in the scriptures and may appear to be presented in a rather unorganized and untidy format.	A necessary perspective is gained by studying and pondering the scriptures.
The Lord could have presented the gospel to us in a manual, systematically organized by subject, perhaps using examples and illustrations.
However the eternal principles and divine laws of God are revealed to us through accounts of individual lives in a variety of circumstances and conditions.
Reading the scriptures, we learn the gospel as it is taught by various messengers at different times and places.	Reading the scriptures, we learn the gospel as it is taught by various prophets in a variety of circumstances, times, and places.
We see the consequences as it is accepted or rejected, as its principles are applied or not to varying degrees and by many different people.	We see the consequences as the gospel is accepted or rejected by individuals and as its principles are applied or not.
In the scriptures we discover that varying institutional forms, procedures and regulations and ceremonies are utilized, all divinely designed to implement eternal principles. The practices and procedures change; the principles do not.	In the scriptures we discover that varying institutional forms, procedures and regulations and ceremonies were utilized, all divinely designed to implement eternal principles. The practices and procedures change; the principles do not.
Through scripture study we may learn eternal principles and how to distinguish them from and relate them to institutional resources.
As we liken the scriptures unto ourselves we can better utilize the institutional resources of the modern restored Church to learn, live and share the gospel of Jesus Christ.	As we liken the scriptures unto ourselves we can better utilize the institutional resources of the modern restored Church to learn, live and share the gospel of Jesus Christ.
A favorite scriptural source for is the Old Testament Book of Leviticus.	A favorite scriptural source for is the Old Testament Book of Leviticus.
It is basically a handbook for Hebrew priests and contains many rules, regulations, rituals and ceremonies which seem strange and inapplicable to us.	It is basically a handbook for Hebrew priests and contains many rules, regulations, rituals and ceremonies which seem strange and inapplicable to us.
It also contains eternal principles of the gospel which are familiar and very much applicable to everyone.	It also contains eternal principles of the gospel which are familiar and very much applicable to everyone.
It is interesting and enlightening to read the 19th chapter of Leviticus, noting both the principles and the rules and practices.	It is interesting and enlightening to read the 19th chapter of Leviticus, noting both the principles and the rules and practices.
In the first two verses we read, “And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, Speak unto all the congregation of the children of Israel…..” (Leviticus 19: 1-2)	In the first two verses we read, “And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, Speak unto all the congregation of the children of Israel…..” (Leviticus 19: 1-2)
Here is the principle of revelation.	Here is the principle of revelation.
God speaks to his children through prophets.	God speaks to his children through prophets.
He does so today.	He does so today.
Continuing, the Lord says to Moses, “….say unto them, Ye shall be holy: for I the Lord your God am holy.” (Leviticus 19:2)	Continuing, the Lord says to Moses, “….say unto them, Ye shall be holy: for I the Lord your God am holy.” (Leviticus 19:2)
Jesus, in the Sermon on the Mount, said, “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.” (Matthew 5:48) Here is an eternal gospel principle.	Jesus, in the Sermon on the Mount, said, “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.” (Matthew 5:48) Here is an eternal gospel principle.
There follow other eternal principles, some form the Ten Commandments.	There follow other eternal principles, some form the Ten Commandments.
Also included are rules and programs intended to implement these principles among the ancient Hebrews in their particular circumstances.	Also included are rules and programs intended to implement these principles among the ancient Hebrews in their particular circumstances.
For example, the divinely directed responsibility to care for the poor is taught. A program is presented, vis. providing food for the poor by leaving the gleanings of the crops and not reaping the corners of the fields. (Leviticus 19:9-10) Current programs to care for the poor are much different. The divine law is the same. Yet another principle underlies both programs, ancient and modern, i.e. those being assisted are given opportunity to participate in helping themselves to the extent of their capacity.	For example, the divinely directed responsibility to care for the poor is taught. A program is presented, vis. providing food for the poor by leaving the gleanings of the crops and not reaping the corners of the fields. (Leviticus 19:9-10) Current programs to care for the poor are much different. The divine law is the same. Yet another principle underlies both programs, ancient and modern, i.e. those being assisted are given opportunity to participate in helping themselves to the extent of their capacity.
In verse 13 the principle of honesty is taught accompanied by a rule requiring employers to pay employees for their work at the end of each day.	In verse 13 the principle of honesty is taught accompanied by a rule requiring employers to pay employees for their work at the end of each day.
Generally, today that rule is not necessary.	Generally, today that rule is not necessary.
The eternal principle of honesty is implemented by other rules and practices.	The eternal principle of honesty is implemented by other rules and practices.
Verse 27 contains a rule about personal grooming, it is clearly not applicable to us.	Verse 27 contains a rule about personal grooming, it is clearly not applicable to us.
However, we also have standards of dress and grooming.	However, we also have standards of dress and grooming.
Neither is an eternal principle; both are intended to help us implement and share gospel principles.	Neither is an eternal principle; both are intended to help us implement and share gospel principles.
The principle of forgiveness is set forth in the same chapter of Leviticus, verse 18, concluding with the second great commandment, “….thou shalt love they neighbor as thyself.” with the added divine imprimatur, “…I am the Lord.”	The principle of forgiveness is set forth in the same chapter of Leviticus, verse 18, concluding with the second great commandment, “….thou shalt love they neighbor as thyself.” with the added divine imprimatur, “…I am the Lord.”
Every church member has not only the opportunity, right, and privilege to receive a personal witness regarding gospel principles and Church practices, but has the need and obligation to obtain such assurance by exercising his free agency, thereby fulfilling one purpose of his mortal probation.	Every church member has the opportunity, right, and privilege to receive a personal witness regarding gospel principles and Church practices.
Without such assurance, one may feel confused and perhaps even burdened by what may appear to be simply institutional requirements of the Church.	Without such a witness, one may feel confused and perhaps even burdened by what may appear to be simply institutional requirements of the Church.
Indeed, it is not enough that we obey the commandments and counsel of Church leaders.	We should obey the commandments and counsel of Church leaders;
In response to study, prayer and by the influence of the Holy Spirit we may seek and obtain an individual, personal witness that the principle or counsel is correct and divinely inspired.	but also through study, through prayer, and by the influence of the Holy Spirit, we should seek and obtain an individual, personal witness that the principle or counsel is correct and divinely inspired.
Then we can give enlightened, enthusiastic obedience, utilizing the Church through which to give allegiance, time, talent and other resources without reluctance or resentment.	Then we can give enlightened, enthusiastic obedience, utilizing the Church through which to give allegiance, time, talent and other resources without reluctance or resentment.
Happy, fulfilling participation in the Church results when we relate institutional goals, programs and policies to gospel principles and to personal eternal goals.	Happy, fulfilling participation in the Church results when we relate Church goals, programs and policies to gospel principles and to personal eternal goals.
When we understand the difference between the gospel and the Church and the appropriate function of each in our daily lives, we are much more likely to do the right things for the right reasons.	When we see the harmony between the gospel and the Church in our daily lives, we are much more likely to do the right things for the right reasons.
Institutional discipline is replaced by self discipline.
Supervision is replaced by righteous initiative and a sense of divine accountability.	We will exercise self discipline and righteous initiative guided by Church leaders and a sense of divine accountability.
The Church aids us in our effort to use our free agency creatively, not to invent our own values and principles, but to discover and adopt the eternal truths of the gospel.	The Church aids us in our effort to use our free agency creatively, not to invent our own values and principles, and interpretations but to learn and live the eternal truths of the gospel.
Gospel living is a process of continuous individual renewal and improvement until the person is prepared and qualified to enter comfortably and with confidence into the presence of God.	Gospel living is a process of continuous individual renewal and improvement until the person is prepared and qualified to enter comfortably and with confidence into the presence of God.
My brothers and sisters, by inclination, training and experience, most of my life I have sought understanding by the accumulation of facts and the application of reason.	My brothers and sisters, by inclination, training and experience, most of my life I have sought understanding by the accumulation of facts and the application of reason.
I continue to do so.	I continue to do so.
However, that which I know most surely and which has most  significantly and positively affected my life I do not know by facts and reason alone, but rather by the comforting, confirming witness of the Holy Spirit.	However, that which I know most surely and which has most significantly and positively affected my life I do not know by facts and reason alone, but rather by the comforting, confirming witness of the Holy Spirit.
By that same Spirit I testify that God is our Father, the Jesus of Nazareth is the Only Begotten of the Father in the flesh and that he is the Savior and Redeemer of all mankind and each of us.	By that same Spirit I testify that God is our Father, the Jesus of Nazareth is the Only Begotten of the Father in the flesh and that he is the Savior and Redeemer of all mankind and each of us.
Through his atoning sacrifice, redemption and exaltation are offered as a free gift to all who will accept by faith, repentance and sacred covenants.	Through his atoning sacrifice, redemption and exaltation are offered as a free gift to all who will accept by faith, repentance and sacred covenants.
May each of us continue to learn and apply the eternal principles of the gospel, utilizing fully and appropriately the resources of the divine restore Church.	May each of us continue to learn and apply the eternal principles of the gospel, utilizing fully and appropriately the resources of the divine restore Church.
In the words of the Nephite leader Pahoran, “… may we rejoice in the great privilege of our church and in the cause of our Redeemer and our God.” (Alma 61:14) In the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.	In the words of the Nephite leader Pahoran, “… may we rejoice in the great privilege of our church and in the cause of our Redeemer and our God.” (Alma 61:14) In the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.

This idea that Allen D Haynie of the Seventy said in A Living Prophet for the Latter Days contradicts very simple teachings from Joseph Smith and the scriptures, including D&C (LDS 76:98-101) (RLDS 76) (1835 91) (1844 92) which shows that following a prophet, you’ll receive telestial glory, which is the lowest glory in the Kingdom of Heaven, see Scripture Study 2023-05-4 Kingdom of Heaven for more on that and how three degrees of glory and hell are taught all over the Bible, even without the New Translation / JST / Inspired Version of the Bible.

If any man preaches to you, doctrines contrary to the Bible [including the JST], the Book of Mormon, or the [1835] Book of Doctrine & Covenants, set him down as an imposter … Try them by the principles contained in the acknowledged word of God; if they preach, or teach, or practice contrary to that, disfellowship them; cut them off from among you as useless and dangerous branches.
Joseph Smith, Times & Seasons, 5:490-491, April, 1, 1844

President Joseph Smith read the 14th chapter of Ezekiel [see, for example, verses 9-10: ‘If the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing…the punishment of the prophet shall be even as the punishment of him that seeketh unto him.’]…said the Lord had declared by the Prophet [Ezekiel], that the people should each one stand for himself, and depend on no man or men in that state of corruption of the Jewish church — that righteous persons could only deliver their own souls — applied it to the present state of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints — said if the people departed from the Lord, they must fall — that they were depending on the Prophet, hence were darkened in their minds, in consequence of neglecting the duties devolving upon themselves…
Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pages 237-238; Joseph Smith, History, 1838–1856, Volume C-1 Addenda, pages 71-72, The Joseph Smith Papers

John 3:30
A He [Yeshua] [influence] must increase,
B but I [John the Baptist] [influence] must decrease.

D&C (LDS 76:98-101) (RLDS 76) (1835 91) (1844 92)
A 98 And the glory of the telestial is one,
-B even as the glory of the stars is one;
–C for as one star differs from another star in glory,
—D even so differs one from another in glory in the telestial world;
—D 99 For these are they who are of Paul, and of Apollos, and of Cephas.
–C 100 These are they who say they are some of one and some of another—
-BA some of Christ [the Messiah]
-B-B and some of John,
-B–C and some of Moses,
-B—D and some of Elias,
-B–C and some of Esaias [D&C (LDS 84:6-16) (RLDS 32) (1835 4) (1844 4)],
-B-B and some of Isaiah,
-BA and some of Enoch;
AA 101 But received not the gospel,
A-B neither the testimony of Jesus [Yeshua],
A-B neither the prophets,
AA neither the everlasting covenant.
see Three Degrees of Glories Chiasmus for the full Chiasmus

3 Nephi (LDS 20:11) (RLDS 9:47)
A 11 Ye remember that I [Yeshua] spake unto you,
-B and said that when the words of Isaiah should be fulfilled—
–C behold they are written,
-B ye have them before you,
A therefore search them [past prophet]—

D&C (LDS 29:14-21) (RLDS 28) (1833 29) (1835 10) (1844 10)
AAA 14 But, behold, I [YHWH] say unto you
AAB that before this great day [Second Coming]
A-BA shall come the sun shall be darkened [solar eclipse] [Sixth Seal],
A-BB and the moon shall be turned into blood [lunar eclipse] [Sixth Seal],
A-BC and the stars [planets / hosts] shall fall from heaven [Sixth – Seventh Seal],
AAA and there shall be greater signs in heaven [Sixth – Seventh Seal]
AAB above and in the earth beneath;
-BA 15 And there shall be
-B-B weeping and wailing
-BA among the hosts of men;
–CA 16 And there shall be a great hailstorm [First Trumpet / Bowl / Vial]
–CB sent forth to destroy the crops of the earth [First Trumpet / Bowl / Vial].
–CAA 17 And it shall come to pass,
–CAB because of the wickedness of the world,
–C-B that I [YHWH] will take vengeance upon the wicked [wrath / Seventh Seal],
–C–C for they will not repent;
–C–C for the cup of mine indignation is full [wrath / Seventh Seal];
–C-BA for behold,
–C-BB My [Yeshua] blood shall not cleanse them
–CA if they hear [listen and obey] Me [Yeshua] not.
-BAA 18 Wherefore, I the Lord [YHWH] God [Elohim]
-BAB will send forth flies upon the face of the earth [Fifth Trumpet / Bowl / Vial],
-B-BA which shall take hold of the inhabitants thereof,
-B-B-B and shall eat their flesh [Fifth Trumpet / Bowl / Vial],
-B-BA and shall cause maggots to come in upon them [Fifth Trumpet / Bowl / Vial];
-B–CA 19 And their tongues shall be stayed [Fifth Trumpet / Bowl / Vial]
-B–CB that they shall not utter against Me [YHWH];
-B-BA and their flesh shall fall from off their bones [Fifth Trumpet / Bowl / Vial],
-B-BB and their eyes from their sockets [Fifth Trumpet / Bowl / Vial];
-BAA 20 And it shall come to pass
-BA-B that the beasts of the forest [Fifth Trumpet / Bowl / Vial]
-BA-B and the fowls of the air [Fifth Trumpet / Bowl / Vial]
-BAA shall devour them up.
AAA 21 And the great and abominable church [Mystery Babylon],
AAB which is the whore of all the earth,
A-B shall be cast down by devouring fire [and brimstone] [Seventh Trumpet / Bowl / Vial],
A–C according as it is spoken by the mouth of Ezekiel the [past] prophet,
A–C who spoke of these things,
A-B which have not come to pass but surely must,
AAA as I live,
AAB for abominations shall not reign.

Another reason that was brought up to why I am not being allowed to visit is because I was different than the other members. Which is sad to hear, especially considering that their top leaders have stated during LDS / Brighamite General Conferences that the church is stronger with people’s differences. In addition, these same top LDS / Brighamite leaders have also stated, come to church no matter how little faith you have.

I would like to bring out the reason I was able to stay calm through out this interrogation, is because I know that I am pursuing the will, which is Torah, of YHWH Elohim, and because of that I have peace from Yeshua / Jesus as He gave His disciples as taught in Lectures on Faith 6. Letures on Faith is the doctrine of the Doctrine and Covenants as stated in 1835 Doctrine and Covenants Preface: To the Members. Which is where Joseph Smith states that he is responsible for what is taught in those lectures. Although Joseph Smith worked on these lectures a ton, as shown with quotes in The Holy Spirit and The Holy Ghost are the Same, it really doesn’t matter who wrote them with the stamp of approval that Joseph Smith gave them, as did all the churches leadership did with a vote to add it to the cannon as shown at 1835 Doctrine and Covenants General Assembly: Votes.

Lectures on Faith 6:2 … An actual knowledge to any person that the course of life which he pursues is according to the will of God [Elohim], is essentially necessary to enable him to have that confidence in God [Elohim], without which no person can obtain eternal life. It was this that enabled the ancient saints to endure all their afflictions and persecutions, and to take joyfully the spoiling [losing] of their goods, knowing, (not believing merely,) that they had a more enduring substance, Hebrews 10:34.

Scriptures teach that judgements are to be public. The fact that the final judgement is done at the gates and how everyone will agree shows this, not to mention all the examples in the scriptures about the judgements are to be done at the gates of the city. The book of Ruth shows this also, among many other important truths including the gospel which are brought out by I and others at Ruth.

D&C (LDS 71:7) (RLDS 71) (1835 90) (1844 91)
AA 7 Wherefore, confound your enemies;
AB call upon them to meet you both in public and in private;
BA and inasmuch as ye are faithful
BB their shame shall be made manifest.

I do wish I had started the recording sooner, such that the uplifting conversation I was having with one of the counselors before the meeting could be heard also.

Now without waiting any longer, here is the recording I did:

YouTube:

Rumble:

OneDrive Audio: download (51.7 MB)

After the interview, I shared the recording with my friends. After thay listened to it, they shared with me some of the observations they had. There were things that I didn’t notice going through it and even listening to it afterwards.

My Observations

Through out this interview, I felt many times they were not paying attention to what I was saying, in that they continued to ask me basically the same thing multiple times in different ways. It seems vistors who know the scriptures or who don’t believe that their leaders are actual prophets, seers and revelators are actually not welcomed.

• 03M50S: The bishop stating he wants to get his decission correct, which brings out how the bishop already decided what he was going to do, and this meeting was just a formality.
• 03M58S: The bishop is claiming he was waiting because he wanted to sort it out. But the reason the meeting happened is because my mom asked one of the counselors what was going on with this when he asked her how she was doing after three months had passed, which the bishop and the counselors have been avoiding my mom at church.
• 04M24S: The bishop is claiming that he and his counselors talked about having me visit the ward the Sunday after our talk. I find that highly suspicious because when my mom talked with one counelor he didn’t seem to know anything about it, and when the other counselor talked with me he made it sound like he didn’t know why the bishop wanted to meet with me. The bishop said the counselors were treading light because they didn’t want to do the right thing, I’m sure that was an accident because of the stress of the situation.
• 04M58S: The bishop is going to have the counselors ask me questions, which he will then make a decision based upon my answers. He did not talk to his counselors about the decision, as is supposed to happen, hence the title counselor.
• 06M15S: The mentioning of me serving and paying for me mission was for the purpose of showing I seriously I took the church. A picture on my mission with my sickle is at Chiasmus.
• 08M08S: In the post Anthony E Larson, I talk about the home teacher that said I didn’t believe in Yeshua / Jesus.
• 09M43S: My LDS / Brighamite resignation letter can be seen at LDS Resignation Letter.
• 13M43S: Here are the recorded Scripture Studies I talked about, which I do sacrament just before them.
• 15M24S: I have the list of the LDS / Brighamite church D&C sections I do not believe are authentic, and some of them I have taken the time to go verse by verse showing why, I hope to get time to do that for all of them, at Doctrine and Covenants.
• 19M21S: I list a lot of symbols and their meanings at Symbolism. The two main pages I have on the second coming are Second Coming and Mighty and Strong One were you can find videos I have done commentaries on regarding those two subjects that are very closely tied to each other. I have others at Gnostic.
• 22M:03S: Here is the site for the dictionary Webster’s Dictionary 1828.
• 23M50S: I was the top contributor, which to be honest is not hard. Growing up in the church, teachers have a hard time getting people to contribute at all most of the time. And leaders say they want people to contibute more, well that is unless you are like me I guess.
• 31M46S: The LDS / Brighamite church likes to say that they study the scriptures including the Old Testament / Tanak and the New Testament. But what the bishop is saying, is that the real focus is studying who they claim are modern prophets, seers and revelators. And what I see is that yes they will have a verse here and there from the scriptures, but they are used to bring in a quote from other people.
• 33M00S: As Yeshua / Jesus taught we are to know a prophet by their fruits see Matthew 7:15-20. In the D&C (LDS 9:8) (RLDS 9) (1833 8) (1835 35) (1844 35) YHWH tells us to study things out and then take it to Him. In that same revelation Oliver Cowdery was told that YHWH wouldn’t just tell him things without him studying it out, which is what I feel the bishop and the two counselors wanted me to do, as I asked for them to share with me the fruits they see of the current leadership which they never gave me. I have more on this subject at In Honor of Today and Yesterday which was written during the last day of Fall 2025 LDS General Conference.
• 33M10S: Joseph talked about the son of Joseph being the next prophet. That is the son of Joseph of Egypt not Smith. I go over this in Scripture Study 2024-03-17.
• 33M38S: I have put together some resources regarding the blacks and the priesthood at Black Skin.
• 35M24S: The scriptures about publishing revelation are listed at Publish.
• 35M55S: Regarding the bishops statement about the church is not about proving or debating, Paul, who YHWH said through the holy prophet Joseph Smith in D&C (LDS 18:9-15) (RLDS 16) (1833 15) (1835 43) (1844 43) is an apostle of His see that and more at Paul, stated in Acts 17 we should be testing what the leaders are teaching to the scriptures. YHWH repeated this in the D&C as I list at Church Government. Then there is this quote from Joseph Smith below. To be honest during the interview, I felt like many times they were not paying attention to what I was saying, and this is one of those times.
  If any man preaches to you, doctrines contrary to the Bible [including the JST], the Book of Mormon, or the [1835] Book of Doctrine & Covenants, set him down as an imposter … Try them by the principles contained in the acknowledged word of God; if they preach, or teach, or practice contrary to that, disfellowship them; cut them off from among you as useless and dangerous branches.
  Joseph Smith, Times & Seasons, 5:490-491, April, 1, 1844
• 36M15S: The LDS / Brighamite leaders have stated that our differences makes the church stronger, it seems the bishop has forgotten that teaching of theirs.
• 36M27S: The LDS / Brighamite church encourages on a regular basis to share what they have learned. Fast and testimony meeting is dedicated to just that, which I would encourage people to read Alma (LDS 31) (RLDS 16:78-130) after an LDS / Brighamite fast and testimony meeting to see if there are any simularities which what is happening. Not to mention if it’s not about what people have learned as the bishop is claiming, what is there to talk about except direct quotes from the scriptures and the top LDS / Brighamite leaders? Where does expounding the scriptures come into play?
• 36M44S: The bishop can not give an example of anything I said was against the Spirit as he claimed I did. What I am confident was going on is that the bishop and his counselors were experiencing what is called congnitive dissonance, see Cognitive dissonance on Wikipedia. To keep it simple it’s a feeling of discomfort you receive when you are confronted with truth that contradicts your beliefs. Truth is not determined by warm and fuzzy feelings as the church teaches see HearSell which is something the church is still doing and profiting off of. In addition Nephi, when he was told by the Spirit to enact the punishment upon Laban for the sins Laban committed, Nephi did not feel all warm and fuzzy to know it was true, in fact it made him feel bad as talks about in his retelling of it. But he did it, and he ended up knowing it was true, because he compaired with what was going on with what is written in Torah, just as Paul and Joseph Smith taught us to do. More about Nephi, Laban and Torah please see Bishops are JUDGEs of Israel.
• 38M10S: I state in My Patriarchal Blessing that Yah can inspire anyone, and give examples of it. But I also believe, it is a waist of time to actively look for inpiration or revelation from YHWH through wicked men.
• 39M13S: The bishop is putting words into my mouth that I never said, I simply restated what I had already said before, I do not believe who you say are prophet, seers and revelators, are. And asked multiple times during this meeting for these fruits and no one ever attempted to share any.
• 44M13S: One of the counselors is admitting that the church pushes we need to align ourselves with what the current prophet is saying. It’s not about knowing the scriptures that they like to tell the world that they study and believe in. It comes down to, as it does with so many other counsels and meetings with people, do you believe that current leaders are prophets or not, not if you believe Yeshua / Jesus is the promised Messiah or not. Where in the past LDS / Brighamite taught if we contradict the scriptures, put aside what we taught. That is no longer true. There is a push to not to really know the scriptures, but just to quote a verse here and there.
• 45M01S: To be honest I felt like the bishop was trying to show me he knows better the me with his statement he wasn’t here for a community as I did. I did add more reasons later when I was able to. To me, it seemed like he wanted to tell me I’m wrong, which goes against what he said earlier it’s not about proving people wrong.
• 45M11S: The bishops states he comes to church to be more like Jesus. I’m sorry, but kicking someone out just because they see some things differently than you, and has stated he would be respectful, is not being like Yeshua. LDS / Brighamite church manual in it’s stated words states I would be allowed to stay, as does the scriptures including the Doctrine and Covenants and the Book of Mormon. There is wiggle room at the end of the LDS / Brighamite church manual is at the discretion of the bishop, and apparently that is what he is using, to keep a restoration believer like me from visiting. In addition he does that through a living prophet, not what is taught in the scriptures, as he stated.
• 45M35S: With the bishop stating he doesn’t know why I would want to be there, really goes to show he is not listening to me to understand me and what I want, because I said the same basic reasons multiple times.
• 46M00S: The bishop is claiming I wanted to tear apart who people’s beliefs in who they believe are prophets, which really goes to show he’s not listening. In that I stated I would not bring out how who they claim is a prophet is not, but I would share a scripture that I felt was important that would go with what the scriptures teach.
• 46M14S: The bishop claiming the issue of who is a prophet coming up every two mintues is not true, but if it was, it would show no focus on the scriptures and only on the words of men.
• 46M20S: I believe it is easy to hear in the tone of the bishops voice he is getting very emotional.
• 46M30S: If the bishop knew by the spirit I was not a member before, why did he not do anything to take care of the problem? Are we not to act on the promptings from YHWH? I do believe the one of the problems is the fact that the LDS / Brighamite church teaches that once someone leaves the LDS / Brighamite church they can in no way be inspired by the Spirit anymore and are now sons of perditions and their fait is to go to hell.
• 46M56S: A lot of people did come to me personally and tell me that they liked what I said. In addition a lot more people went to my mom and told her it also. But according to the bishop my mom and I don’t seem to understand simple English. I do believe the problem is that the
• 46M12S: Another example showing that bishop is not listening to understand me and my reasons.
• 47M49S: The bishop lied about my mom approaching the counselors. One counselor approached her in church and asked her questions, she then asked what was going on with me, which he then said words he had no idea what she was talking about. The other counselor came to our door asking for me, that is in no way my mom approaching him. Which is when that counselor said things to me showing he didn’t know what was going and I told him to ask the bishop.
• 49M15S: While talking to one of the counselors when I mentioned how the scripture bring out how the members of the church are to keep leaders in check by the scriptures, he agreeded, but when I started showing what that meant, he started changing his answer. See Church Government for more. The problem with only having leaders who doing the checking, while they are being called by other leaders which is done incorrectly in the LDS / Brighamite church please see Church Government and how YHWH states VOTE not SUSTAIN regarding church leaders, is that leaders will only call men who will do what their told despite what the scriptures teach. Here is a quote from Joseph Smith addressing this issue:
  We have heard men who hold the priesthood remark that they would do anything they were told to do by those who preside over them (even) if they knew it was wrong; but such obedience as this is worse than folly to us; it is slavery in the extreme; and the man who would thus willingly degrade himself, should not claim a rank among intelligent beings, until he turns from his folly. A man of God would despise the idea. Others, in the extreme exercise of their almighty authority have taught that such obedience was necessary, and that no matter what the saints were told to do by their presidents, they should do it without any questions. When the Elders of Israel will so far indulge in these extreme notions of obedience as to teach them to the people, it is generally because they have it in their hearts to do wrong themselves.
  Joseph Smith, Millennial Star, vol.14 #38, pp. 593-95
• 50M16S: The other counselor is claiming it’s not every members responsibility to keep leaders in check. Where the trail that the church held against Joseph Smith, in accordance to scriptures, after Zion’s Camp shows differently, as a member thought the president of the church, Joseph Smith, did something wrong. It went through the procedure as outlined by YHWH in His scriptures, and Joseph Smith was found innocent. See Scripture Study 2025-06-25 Church Trial of Joseph Smith for more.
• 50M:38S: The bishop is claiming he was hoping he didn’t have ban me from visiting the church, but I disagree. He had been putting this off to cause me not to go to church, as I told him I wouldn’t go until I was told what his decission was. In addition, he states where he has felt all along, is where he stands, the decission was already made, and this meeting was just a formality, which was not needed, he could have just asked me not to come from the begining. In addition, counsels / presidencies are to deliberate together before making a dicission, and that is not what happened. The bishop had the counselors ask questions, and he then stated the conclution he already made.
• 51M02S: The bishop is claiming he appriates a man who study the scriptures deeply as he is telling one to not to come to church, forgive me, I don’t believe it.
• 51M12S: When the bishop said be believed I’d be a good member back in Joseph Smith’s day, I was thinking about Joseph Smith’s last dream in which he prophecied that the restoration would reject him and his teachings, so I took it as a compliment that he wouldn’t understand, see Joseph Smith’s Last Dream.
• 51M17S: The fact the bishop is claiming I said Quran and not the Torah, shows he doesn’t study much, and in my opinion it also shows he was not listening to me. Quran deals with Islam not the Hebrew scriptures. Notice I asked him if he really meant Quran and not just assumed it. I do believe it was an honest mistake, but someone who is studied, and perhaps listening, would have not made such a mistake. The most common understanding what Torah is, is that is the five books of Moses in the front of the Bible. I believe that Torah is every word of YHWH that is not a perscribed punishment in that we are to live by every word of Yah that comes out of His mouth, and I have stated this many places. He is aware of the Torah, while getting wrong what I said.
• 51M41S: The bishop is claiming the fruits of the LDS / Brighamite church is 40 million members. After I came home from this interview I looked it up, there is only 17,509,781 members as of Sun 2025-06-29 when I looked it up on the LDS / Brighamite church newsroom at facts and statistics.
• 52M19S: The bishop seems to know what my wants and desires are better than I do.
• 52M25S: The bishop is claiming he has lost sleep over this decission for three months that it took to for this interview to happen. Which if that was the case, why loose all that sleep over it, and not just have the meeting? In addition here in the meeting he is claiming he has been loosing sleep over my mom, which is odd, because he always telling my mom he thought she was doing well. And if he thought she was doing okay, why is he loosing sleep over her. What I know for sure, is this one of multiple things my mom took issue with when she heard the recording some time after the meeting.
• 52M52S: The bishop is claiming he has tried every avenue to try to get it such that I could go to church. It is interesting to note he is not willing to talk about anything with me, as he stated earlier in the interview. Personally I believe that is something he said to make himself feel and look better.
• 52M53S: With regards the bishop claiming he could call president Nelson to see if he would say something else, and me say he probably wouldn’t, is because as I see it, the LDS / Brighamite church puts forth a perception that they want visitors, and in their General Conference their top leaders have some with as little faith as you have, but I know many examples when people have done that the bishops don’t allow it to the point of excommunication, and here I am another example coming with what the LDS / Brighamite church would call little faith and being told not to come back. Another small note, is that the bishop doesn’t seem to know how to say president Nelson’s name.
• 53M01S: Apparently the bishop thinks the only people who are allowed to visit are those who are on the same page, but even the members are not on the same page on things as we discussed before and was acknowledged.
• 53M14S: The bishop is saying that I can go after the members all I want online, as he has any authority to stop me, but it just goes to show he is not discerning what I have been saying through this whole interview, showing bishops do not have the gift of discernment as the LDS / Brighamite church claims. FYI discernment is about knowing what is right and wrong which comes from knowing Torah which Moroni (LDS 7) (RLDS 7) teaches as I show in All Things You Should DO.
• 53M27S: The bishop is emphasizing the fruit he believes matters, the number of members, his incorrect perception of 40 million members over the 6 that regularly come to Fellowship and Scripture Study I host. In addition the bishop admits he has not looked at my fruits, and says he doesn’t need to. Which shows a double standard how I was asked if I have looked for the fruits of Nelson being a prophet, seer and revelator, which I stated I have and couldn’t find any, and asked if they would be willing to share fruits they have found of those titles such that I could study it out and then pray about it. The bishop re-emphasized my fruit is 6 people, showing he only cares about numbers. I bring up that the number of members is not how to determine if a church is true, if it was, the Catholic church would be the true church, and it’s not.
• 54M08S: One of the counselors mentioning how he would be my friend, but the whole time I have been here, he hasn’t tried once. On that note, I know how often the ward comes to visit my parents to be a friend, it’s almost zero. Even when my mom asks for help, because of my dad’s physical condition, the answer she gets, you don’t need to do that. Instead of helping, excuses are given, that is not being a friend, nor like Yeshua / Jesus.
• 54M10S: I felt like they were trying to justify the decission that was made, without the bishop and counselors talking together, that it is the correct one, and I mentioned they don’t need to justify it to me they need to justify it to Yah. I wonder, if the decission wasn’t already made about what was to be done with me, and he didn’t pray, how does the bishop know this decission is okay with YHWH.
• 54M25S: The fact that the bishop states this interview solidifies the decission for him, shows that he already made the decission, as you can’t solidify anything that wasn’t there in the first place. Bringing out this outcome is not what he hoped is a lie, he has been indercetly admitted he already made the decission before the meeting in various ways.
• 54M40S: The bishop starts giving me hard time how I call Yeshua by his old names. He made a big deal about what name I call my Savior, while playing all high and mighty how the church is not about proving people wrong, while he is trying to prove I wrong. And going off as I responded to his comment about the name I use, how His mother didn’t call Him Jesus, and that is proof to the bishop he made the right decission. He claims debates can’t happen, while he was telling me I was using the wrong name. The bishop is being a hypocrite here among other times.

Josh’s Observations

My friend, Steven Retz, recently had an interview with his local bishop in a ward of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. The reason that he had this interview was from something that came up from a situation between his mother and neighbor, who happens to also be a member of this ward. Steven had gone in to talk with bishop about it a few months earlier. My friend is no longer a member of the church and would have been content to leave things alone after having talked with the bishop in defense of his mother. However, Steven’s mother had talked to the bishop to see if it would be alright for Steven to attend the ward. There was some back and forth between Steven’s mother and the bishop and his counselors until finally a time was arranged for Steven to go in and talk with the bishop to see if it would be alright for Steven to attend meetings at the local ward. Steven agreed to go and speak with the bishop for his mother’s sake and also because he wanted to help people to have a closer relationship with the scriptures. Especially, the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants.

I have taken down some notes from this interview. It became apparent to me throughout the course of this interview that the bishop and his counselors had already made up his mind as to what course of action that he wanted to take. The Bishop and his counselors were not very honest in their dealings with Steven during this interview. So, I approached this with that mindset while listening to the recording of the interview that Steven shared with me. That being said, I am only going to be making observations of things that I noticed during the interview of things that were said. I noticed that the bishopric kept on trying to manipulate Steven into saying what they wanted to hear from him. I will not be providing links. My friend Steven is doing a post on this interview in which he provides many links to valuable information. I encourage everyone to follow the links from his post. I have learned a great deal from his posts and links and there is much that Steven has to share of things that YHWH has shown and taught him that would be very valuable for anyone.

• approx 3:48 The bishop stated that he knows that his counselors are men of God. My question is how does he KNOW that? is he in there heads 24/7? Does he pretend to know all of the thoughts and desires of their hearts? This is an issue that I have with many people nowadays, in general. They will often say that they KNOW things that there is no way that they can know without definitive physical proof, and when you ask them for the proofs all that they come back with is feelings.
• approx 3:56 The bishop made the statement, “I want to make sure that we get this right.” This may be a possible allusion to a decision already made that he wanted this interview to confirm for him. The bishop even admits as much later on in the interview. There were also some statements made about having his counselors sit in on the meeting because this is how things are done in the church. This is fine. However, Steven is not a member of the church and the way that this interview was run was similar to disciplinary interviews that I have participated in while I was still an active member of the Brighamite LDS Church. There was no need to do this for Steven because, at the time of this interview, he was not a member. Steven agreed and said, “I also have friends who help keep me in check.”
• approx 4:06 The bishop apologized for the few months of waiting to get Steven in for the interview for months and then said, “Not trying to make excuses buuttt….” Then proceeded to make excuses for the delay.
• approx 4:16 Steven informs the bishop that this is really not such a big deal for him when the bishop tries to bring out how improtant it must be to Steven. The Bishop made an incorrect assumption. Steven said the only reason he accepted the interview was for his mother.
• approx 4:36 The bishop said that his counselors had handled the situation with caution because they were unsure of how to proceed and that they did not want to do the RIGHT thing. To be fair, I think that this is just a case of misspeaking. It was obvious that the bishop was nervous and fairly confrontational from the outset of this interview.
• approx 5:45 The bishop asked his counselors if they had any questions for Steven. One of the counselors spoke up and asked Steven for a little more background information on himself. Steven happily obliged. He started going into why he left the church.
• Steven went on to talk about his journey to his decision to remove his name from the records of the church. He stated that in 2014 he personally brought his resignation letter to his bishop and that his bishop did not want to give in on him leaving the church and that he wanted to talk with Steven about it. So, Steven agreed to talk with the bishop about it.
• approx 11:32 Steven stated that he had three conversations with his bishop in which his bishop would qoute from the church handbook and then Steven would qoute from the scriptures. Steven stated that the bishop was a good guy but that he was confused.
• Finally, after three meetings the bishop stopped trying to convince Steven not to leave.
• approx 12:00 Steven had asked for a 1 month grace period before his resignation was to be put in place, mainly to see how people would treat him. This was ignored and his resignation was made effective immediately.
• approx 12:23 Steven stated that the bishop still allowed Steven to attend church because he saw that Steven was respectful and careful while at church. Outside of church Steven is much more open.
• approx 13:09 Steven continued attending church and no one knew that he was not a member. (Meaning that no one could tell that he was not a member).
• approx 13:27 Leaving the church was a lonely time for Steven. He literally had no one who shared in his beliefs.
• approx 14:18 Not having fellowship is hard. (This is why we are commanded to meet together often to partake of the sacrament and to teach and edify one another).
• approx 14:35 Steven tried visiting other churchs and defended Joseph Smith and the restoration when people spoke falsehoods about them.
• approx 15:10 Members of any church tend to be good people. Even though Steven got the feeling that he was not welcome after sharing his beliefs at these other churchs.
• approx 15:20 Steven feels more commonality with the Brighamite LDS church than others because of Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon, and the Doctrine and Covenants
• approx 15:58 (bishop) “So, What is it that you want? Do you still want to attend?”
• approx 16:00 (Steven) “I enjoy meeting with other believers.” Steven then went on to describe how lonely things are when one is alone in worship and then brought out how he has started using social media and has a small group that he meets with online every sabbath.
• approx 16:49 (counselor) “How many people are in your group?” (Steven) “Six, total.” (the information from this question will come up later in the interview in a negative way against Steven).
• approx 18:11 Steven makes a significant statement that is, in my opinion, completely overlooked by all of the members of the bishopric. Steven stated that when someone speaks against the church and says something that is wrong that Steven does and will defend the church against the lies.
• approx 19:00 Again, Steven states that it is good to be part of a community.
• approx 19:08 Stevens states that he still learns things at church that he would not have learned otherwise.
• approx 19:50 Steven makes the bold, and true, statement that Satan has deceived the whole world.
• approx 20:30 Steven states that he believes that the church, in general, does want God’s law.
• approx 20:43 (counselor) My first experience with Steven was 3 months ago. You asked alot of questions and made a lot of comments. I could tell that you have alot that you want to share and alot that you believe.
• approx 20:53 (Steven) Hopefully, you can say that I didn’t force anything. (couselor) No.
• approx 21:00 (Steven) When the teacher wanted me to talk I definitely did and when he didn’t want me to, I went silent. (couselor) Yeah! Yeah!
• approx 21:15 (Steven) I am not trying to prove the church is wrong. (The scriptures will do that on their own. Steven doesn’t need to prove anything wrong. We are to prove every word that is spoken by the church leaders against the already revealed word of YHWH. Therein will be the proof of truth or lie.)
• approx 21:25 (Steven) I am trying to share the scriptures and what they mean and to help people to get more confidence in the scriptures.
• approx 21:37 Steven started going over some of the things that he has learned and that he keeps learning as he continues to work on posts.
• approx 21:52 Steven offers to show the bishopric his notes. They respond with maybe later. However, I do not feel like this is a truly genuine response. It was simply given to make the interview move on and to get the bishopric to their already chosen final decision.
• approx 22:40 Steven repeats his previous statment, ” I just want to help people come to a better understanding. I never force.
• approx 23:11 (counselor) One of the things that you mentioned was trying to share what you have learned. WE just try to stick to the frame work of the lesson. (Again, trying to bring out how they feel that Steven will be a disruption to the message from the manual).
• 23:33 (Steven) Last Sunday I may have brought some other scriptures in, but I kept everything on point with the lesson. (counselor) I wasn’t there. (Steven) Ask him. (other counselor) Yeah! You contributed. You were the top contributor that day and was a little..um…not a bad thing. It was just a little different. We have a teacher who will typically lead a discussion or lesson in the Come Follow Me Manual. Taking a section or two of the D & C this year. We go through that and I think that maybe, it may have derailed his intended lesson a little bit, but I think that maybe comes from your enthusiasm and you wanting to share.
• approx 24:47 (Steven) I take Moroni 6:9 very seriously. Teaching should be determined in the moment.
• approx 25:43 (counselor) You had mentioned that there are things, especially in the D & C, that we are going to talk about in the lessons, and things like that, that you disagree with.
• approx 25:50 (Steven) There are some more controversial things. There are a couple of sections that I do not believe. Namely, the ones I know off the top of my, is section 132 and 131, 130 also that goes along with them. I have a whole list of them written out that I can send to you. So, when you are having lessons on those sections, you can ask me not to come, and I won’t come.
• approx 26:26 (Steven) If I am here, I will speak up. If you don’t want me here on those ones, I won’t be. (Steven provides a very clear solution to the previous concern about not being in agreement with everything that will be taught in all of the lessons. However, as we move further into the interview, it becomes apparent that this solution does not interest anyone in the bishopric. This further strengthens my premise that the decision to ban Steven from coming to anymore meetings had already been made before this interview even began).
• approx 27:34 (Bishop) I guess my concern would be, you talked about that contradiction (the word that Steven used was controversial) where see, in the D & C, or wherever, a contradiction and would want to bring out something to support that. This would be a concern. We are meeting here in the church, we have our doctrine. We have our scriptures, and we have the prophet, and so that is what we teach and what we follow, that this would not be the venue for bringing that up at Sunday School.
• approx 28:02 (Steven) On that point, if you ask the members of your ward about this subject versus that subject they are going to contradict each other. Probably not on the core things but on various, on some of the various less core ones, they are going to have different beliefs that contradict each other. That is why we should talk it out, with the Word of Yah to figure it out. I am not the only one who would contradict. In fact, I’ve seen it in this ward, not recently, but before I went to Argentina. Members of THIS ward would contradict. Period. The thing is can you show it from the Word of Yah. During class I would not call out the words of church leaders as wrong. I would share scripture and let people decide on their own if I am intrepreting that scripture correctly or not.
• approx 29:11 (Steven) I still don’t understand everything. I am still learning. Sometimes I do learn from the people from church.
• approx 29:22 (Steven) We should learn truth, no matter where it comes from. A lot of people thinks that means only from the pulpit of their favorite church. I don’t believe that. I have learned things from people who I adamantly disagree with on other subjects.
• approx 30:05 (Steven) I am still working on becoming perfect. (counselor) We all are, right? (Steven) Well, at least in this room. (counselor) That’s what we’re commanded to do. (Steven) Well, we are commended to BE perfect. Which means that it is possible.
• approx 30:37 It doesn’t matter who says it. It matters if it’s true, or not. If it contradicts the scriptures, given the correct interpretation, it is not true. That is a big reason why I focus on scriptures a whole bunch. When I do find out that I am wrong I just come out and admit it. If you want the truth, you should embrace it. Not being prideful, and saying I am right and you are wrong. Take the Word at it’s Word.
• approx 31:37 (Bishop) So, Steven, you speak about the Word. Are modern prophets, seers, and revelators, do they have a….? You haven’t mentioned any of that, and as you can tell that is where the church is.
• approx 31:46 (Steven) Oh yes! I know.
• approx 31:47 (Bishop) Our lessons, our conversations comes from the modern, living, prophets and apostles.
• approx 31:53 (Steven) I don’t know any past Joseph Smith. Now, a lot of people love to claim titles for people, but I’ll be honest, every time I ask for fruits of the titles of prophet, seer, and revelator, no one is willing to show me any.
• approx 31:15 (Bishop) And see, that is where we are with the church today. It’s a living, ongoing, church and we, and I can clearly state this for we, we believe in the words of our modern day prophets and apostles.
• approx 32:34 (Steven) I understand you believe that, and I won’t make a big focus of that during church. I would focus on what I believe is through the previous prophets up to Joseph Smith.
• approx 32:49 (Bishop) Can I just ask….previous and then Joseph Smith? Why Joseph Smith and not Brigham Young and John Taylor?
• approx 32:55 (Steven) Where’s the fruit? Where’s the fruits of the titles they claim? In addition, Brigham Young said, “I am not a prophet. I am watching the church until Joseph Smith III.” That is what Brigham Young said. Brigham Young also said he was a yankee guesser. A lot of Brigham Young’s doctrines are now frowned upon, and if you teach them at church you will get excommunicated. So, when was Brigham Young actually speaking as a prophet and when his own ideas? No one can agree. Even today with blacks or the Adam-God theory and many others, no one in the church can really agree when he is speaking as the prophet, versus his own personal opinion. Nelson tells us he has gotten something, doesn’t tell us what it is, and states his opinions as the words of YHWH. Every time someone has received the words of Yah, we are to publish it. I haven’t seen that.
• approx 35:42 (Bishop) So, Steven, in the church it isn’t about proving, debate, or getting our points across. That’s not the culture of the church.
• approx 36:00 (Steven) Does it sound like anything that I said, like I am trying to prove anything. (Bishop) Welll…..yes. (Steven) Such as What? (Bishop) Well…. Just the atmosphere (the bishop is obviously feeling some cognitive disonance at this point, what Steven is saying is definitely making the bishop and his counselors uneasy) that your approach takes is different, and you’ve admitted that yourself. (Steven) Well, I am different.
• approx 36:26 (Bishop) Yeah! My responsibility, as a spiritual leader, is to provide an atmosphere in which the SPIRIT teaches. Not I, or you, or what you’ve learned. That ‘s not how we approach it in the church. (Steven) So, is anything that I’ve said here do you think is against the spirit? (Bishop) Uh….in my opinion….yes. (Steven) Can you give me an example? (Bishop) Just the tone. (Steven) So, nothing specific. (Bishop) The tone. The approach. (Steven) The approach of using scriptures. (Bishop) Yeah! With your limitations. (Steven) Well, that’s why we discuss it. Because if I am wrong please show me because we are to help each other understand.
• approx 37:25 (Bishop) Well…. (speaking to his counselors) Do you have any other questions?
• approx 37:30 (counselor) Um….Well, may be just a couple other things. Just to answer your question what if there is a quote from one of the general authorities and you disagree with and just kind of highlight your words of scripture. One of the things in the church that we see is for the fruits and publishing it is General Conference.
• approx 37:39 (Steven) Those aren’t revelations. They’re talks. They are not saying this came from YHWH. I believe anybody can be inspired of Yah, and you can see that throughout the scriptures. I believe, even though I don’t know you guys, that at times you can be inspired. Yah even uses the wicked to bring about his purposes. I am not saying that you are wicked. He inspired a donkey. he inspired Caiaphas, the man who actually set up the plan to kill Yeshua. A murderer.
• approx 39:15 (Bishop) So then, are you saying that what we say the prophets, seers, and revelators….the words they are saying could be used as intruments in the adversaries hands to tell us and the members, millions of members, of the church that what Satan wants them to teach us, anti-christ, so to speak? (The Bishop thought that he was going to be slick and he is trying to get Steven into a theological debate. I love the way that Steven just shuts this down).
• approx 39:43 I do not believe, as you say, that they are prophets, seers, and revelators. I think I made it clear from the beginning that’s why I removed my name.
• approx 40:04 (Bishop)So, I guess, That’s the core I come back to. You removed your name, which you explained why, and you don’t believe in prophets past Joseph Smith, where does the desire to be a part us….(you do know that we believe in current prophets, seers, and revelators, and you understand what we believe that), to be part of that community?
• approx 40:27 (Steven) Yeah! Just Friends. I mean, your sign says visitors welcome and, correct me if I am wrong, but I grew up being told to be friends with our neighbors, and that’s part of it. You guys, even though we have our differences, we have some commonalities, and I do believe that we can learn from each other. We may not always agree, but I do believe that we ALL, including me, can learn from you guys. I do learn from coming to church. I don’t know everything and I know that there are people here who DO focus on the D&C and the Book of Mormon, and that most of the world do not. (Then Steven offers not to be present on the Sundays when the controversial sections will be talked about during the lessons). I am not trying to cause a problem. If I wanted to cause a problem I might be sitting out there on the sidewalk, which you guys don’t own, during Sunday holding a sign and saying stuff. I am not trying to be a jackass.
• approx 42:26 (counselor) I think for me, I think what is our role when we come to church. I would say that goal would be to invite the spirit, because there’s things in the scriptures, things that I see everyday, that are fruits that I can see, and that’s how I know that they are prophets, but it isn’t anything that I could prove.
• approx 43:15 (Steven) There are specific fruits listed in the scriptures, and in the D&C it does tell us to pray about those specific fruits, so that we can know they are who they claim. And, if you want, I am happy to see what those fruits are to see if they fit in those titles that they claim.
• approx 43:37 (counselor) From there, I think the key is just to invite the spirit. Ultimately, the spirit is the teacher. I think, for me, some of the things that you are sharing, it’s difficult for me to feel it, and it’s difficult for me to hear, you know, as you talk about the prophet and the brethren, and I disagree with it. One of the things that is important in the gospel, and in the church, is how do we come to that? How do we change our view to more align with the things that the prophet is teaching us? Rather than trying to prove them wrong.
• approx 44:23 (Steven) So, you have an assumption that he is a prophet. I do not. Like I said, no one is ever willing to share these fruits with me to see if they actually fit the title. (Bishop) Have you sought for those on your own? (Steven) Oh! I’ve sought. (Bishop) Have you looked to anyone else, or prayed about it on your own? (Steven) I don’t know any to pray about.
• approx 45:06 (Bishop) So, Steven, You say you want a community. Well, that’s not why I am here. I’m not here for a community. I’m here to become more like Jesus. I do that through a living prophet and apostle who I believe is a mouthpiece to God. That being said, that is how our church is today. You would have been a great member back with Joseph Smith. I don’t even see why you want to be here. Your point is just to teach us what you know and expound together what we know. It ain’t about what you know, or I know, or what somebody else knows. It’s what Father in Heaven and Jesus Christ know and the Holy Ghost that bears witness of the truth. That’s how I know. It’s not this debating scripture, pulling apart who I FEEL is a prophet. I don’t see any benefit for you wanting to be here.
• approx 46:00 (Steven) I even stated that I would NOT talk about how the prophet is false here.
• approx 46:15 (Bishop) I’m here to tell ya, that’s gonna come out every two minutes here. That’s what we base Sunday on. Our talks in church are on that, our lessons in Sunday School and Preisthood are all about that.
• approx 46:34 (Steven) I was here for a year and people did not know I was not a member.
• approx 46:38 (Bishop) I knew. I was here. I was a part of that when (so and so) was the Elder’s Quorum President. (Steven) Well, he might have told you after I told him. (Bishop) No. I could sense it. I didn’t even have to access your member records, and I could sense you weren’t a member of the church.
• approx 46:57 (Steven) Okay. Well, a lot of people liked what I said because I was bringing things out from the scriptures. (Bishop) That’s perception. You know, I don’t honestly care if people like what I say.
• approx 47:10 (Steven) Well, Okay! So, on the purpose of coming here is to learn and to share and to make friends. (Bishop) Yet, you’ve been here for 18 months and you just came 3 months ago. (Steven) Yes, That was because of an issue between my mom and the neighbor. (Bishop) I know that is why she approached the counselors. She wants you with her.
• approx 48:04 (Steven) Can I just say, on the purpose of life, the Bible and the Book of Mormon brings out that the purpose of life is to come under Yeshua’s covering and keep his Torah. I will, in that I do try to help others do the same, but I am not forceful about it. I do try to help people think about things in a way, using scriptures, that would be helpful.
• approx 48:28 (other counselor) So, just a thought, and my concern would be….I get where you are coming from and I can respect that, kind of. Within the confines of the church within the walls of the church, coming to, with your perspective of, you know, where your non-belief in the prophets and it’s just different, you know, helping come to the quote / unquote truth from a different place is an issue, because we have the same framework, the same belief that stems from a living prophet and the scriptures. Your coming from, which I appreciate it, a different perspective, but I don’t know that doing that here within the walls of the church, in Sunday School, is the appropriate place for that.
• approx 49:18 (Steven) A question, if I may? (other counselor) Sure
• approx 49:20 (Steven) So, D&C 107 brings out when a leader makes mistakes the church members are to keep them in check. That they are to do it by the standard of his Word, which is the scriptures. Is that okay to do? (other counselor) If a, if a leader makes a mistake? (Steven) Mistakes, or sins.
• approx 49:53 (other counselor) We have processes and things in place….I say yes. Yeah! I mean, we’re men right? All of us, you know bishops, the bishop has been set apart. He is the leader of the Ward. He holds the keys of the priesthood, but he is man, just like president Nelson. So, he may make mistakes.
• approx 50:11 (Steven) So, I am just going to point out that this is done through the holy scriptures. You can’t just trust one man.
• approx 50:20 (counselor) Well, when moved upon by the Holy Ghost. It’s not just every member’s responsibility to correct the bishop. He has a priesthood leader that he reports to.
• approx 50:35 (Steven) We won’t get into it, but I believe D&C 107 says differently, among other sections.
• approx 50:40 (Bishop) So, Steven, I was hoping that this would end differently. I brought these brethren in because what I felt all along is exactly where I stand. I can’t have you attend church meetings. (This is where the bishop, basically, admits that he had already made up his mind before he even statred to the interview with Steven).I mean, I appreciate a man who is in the scriptures. I appreciate a man who digs and seeks the word of God. (Steven) Just not me.
• approx 51:11 (Bishop) Yeah! No. You were left in the dust. You would have been a great member with Joseph Smith and prior and back with the Quran and all that other, you know…. (Steven) Did you say Quran? (Bishop) Yeah! Or whatever else you’ve referenced. (Steven) Uh! the Quran is not from the restoration. (Bishop) Or, Torah maybe. Yeah! Torah. (Steven) Oh! Ok! There is a huge difference. Just so you are aware.
• approx 51:35 (Bishop)I am aware of the Torah, but we have fruits. There’s 40 million of us now? (Steven) Um! There is not 40 million members of the church. (Bishop) Can you bring up the statistics of the church? Because that’s the fruits and your approach is going to drive people away from this building. (It should not be about the building. It should be about the truth and learning the truth. No matter where you are).
• approx 52:01 (Steven) Well, that is not my intention. My intention is to get people to have stronger belief in the Book of Mormon and the D&C.
• approx 52:09 (Bishop) And you can do that from your social media site. You can choose that platform, but I ain’t gonna allow you to use this as your platform. (Steven) Well, I wasn’t trying to. (Bishop) Well, that’s your perception and this is my perception, and I am the one who makes these decisions. It’s a difficult decision. I don’t take it lightly. I have lost sleepless nights worrying about you and your mother. (Why did it take you 3 months to have this interview with Steven? You only had the interview with Steven to shut his mother up). I did not want to go here, but I can tell you for the whole it’s better that I don’t allow you to come to church. (Steven) Okay. That’s your decision to make. (Bishop) I wish it could’ve been differently. We have tried every avenue. (Steven) We will have to agree to disagree, but that’s fine.
• approx 52:57 (Bishop) Well, I could call up president Neilson, if I had his number, and I can guarantee he would tell me to tell you the same thing. (Steven) I am sure he would. (Bishop) Yup! And – So, your just not on the same page as us. (Steven) Yup! (Bishop) Right?
• approx 53:12 (Steven) I mean, your own members aren’t even on the same page.
• approx 53:15 (Bishop) And you know what? You can go after people all you want on social media, but I’m not going to allow you to go after them here.
• approx 53:20 (Steven) I am not trying to go after people. You have an incorrect perception of what I am and my goals and desires.
• approx 53:32 (Bishop) Well, I’ll tell ya, I will take prophet and president Neilson’s fruits over the six people that’s following you. (Steven) You haven’t even looked. (Bishop) No. I don’t have to look. (Steven) Then how do you know my fruits, if you don’t look?
• approx 53:40 (Bishop) Well, I’d like to tell you. You just said that you have six people who follow you.
• approx 53:46 (Steven) So, how many people followed Jeremiah in his day? (Bishop) I couldn’t tell ya
• approx 53:52 (Steven) Because if the fruits is the number of people, the Catholic Church has more and we all here believe that the Catholic Church is wrong. It is not about the numbers.
• approx 54:01 (counselor) No, Well, I guess for me it all goes back to the spirit. I’ll be your friend. (Steven) Just not here. (counselor) I’ll be your friend wherever.
• approx 54:16 (Steven) You made your decision. You don’t have to justify it to me. You have to justify it to Yah.
• approx 54:20 (Bishop) I already have. I have a clear conscience before God about this decision, and this meeting helped me solidify that. (At last. The admission that he had already written Steven off before the interview and that he was fine with that). I am sorry it is not the outsome that we had hoped, but it is what Jesus wants us to do.
• approx 54:38 (Steven) We disgree about that.
• approx 54:41 (Bishop) Yeah! And you can call him by his old names all you like….(This was absolutely uncalled for. There was no need to make things personal. This is not something that a servant of YHWH should be doing. A true servant of YHWH should not be making fun of anyone who truly trying to live by the law).(Steven) His mother didn’t call him Jesus.
• approx 54:52 (Bishop) Again, Steven, that’s what I am talking about. These debates just can’t happen in our Ward.
• approx 54:56 (Steven) You’re the one who made a big deal about me calling him Yeshua. I didn’t make a big deal about how you call him Jesus. You’re the one who made a big deal out of that.

Transcript:

00:00:00 Boeing and goes, “No, I can do this and
00:00:02 this and this and this.” And I’m like,
00:00:04 “That’s great. That’s not what I meant.”
00:00:06 Yeah. I People can use a tool for just
00:00:09 about anything. And I will myself when I
00:00:13 don’t have anything else to use. But
00:00:16 let’s use some wisdom,
00:00:18 right? There’s a place for wisdom. There
00:00:22 is. Um,
00:00:24 and that comes sadly wisdom comes by
00:00:27 making mistakes through experience.
00:00:29 That’s the experience part of wisdom.
00:00:38 My turn. Yeah. Okay. Sorry I’m late. Oh,
00:00:42 that’s fine. I sometimes even me takes
00:00:44 longer than I’ve joined in invited my
00:00:47 counselors to join us. Sure. That’s
00:00:49 fine. Come on in, guys. Bright and
00:00:52 early. Although not
00:00:54 8:30. We got girls camp tomorrow. Oh,
00:00:59 she’s a young women’s president. I never
00:01:02 went to one, but I did go to scout camp,
00:01:05 which I enjoyed. So, I uh never I we had
00:01:09 all boys, so I never have been until I
00:01:11 was called into a bishop brick and Yeah.
00:01:14 which was just five years ago probably.
00:01:17 Well, that would be appropriate. Yeah.
00:01:19 So, it would be appropriate. I I I have
00:01:21 a friend that he has a daughter that his
00:01:23 daughter just went uh just to girls
00:01:26 camp. She loves it, which it’s a little
00:01:29 surprising what I know about her, but
00:01:31 I’m glad she likes it. The outdo I love
00:01:33 the outdoors. They make it enjoyable for
00:01:35 them. They go they do they put a lot
00:01:36 into it. That’s good. Make it It’s not
00:01:38 your typical roughing it outdoor
00:01:40 experience. It’s a So I didn’t never
00:01:43 other than scouting didn’t do much
00:01:45 camping with the church cuz that’s just
00:01:47 the scouting was the boy’s arm when I
00:01:50 grew up, right? Um but I did do um
00:01:56 what is it when you pull the wheel cart?
00:01:58 I forget the name of it. Yeah, I did do
00:02:00 the track and I liked that. That was
00:02:02 good. Hand cart track. Yeah. Yeah,
00:02:04 that’s the the hand cart. Yeah.
00:02:06 When I’m helping my mom and I’m pulling
00:02:09 the wheelbarrow, I still pull it like
00:02:10 the handcar. I think it’s I think it’s
00:02:14 better. But yeah,
00:02:16 finer detail. Well, Stephen, thanks for
00:02:19 meeting with us. Uh I would like to
00:02:22 start with a word of prayer. Sure. That
00:02:23 okay? Yeah. Uh Roy, would you offer
00:02:26 that?
00:02:29 Our dear father in heaven, we come
00:02:31 before thee this Sabbath day grateful to
00:02:34 thee for the blessings or has given us.
00:02:37 Thank you for thy son, our savior, Jesus
00:02:40 Christ. Thank thee for the opportunity
00:02:43 to meet with Stephen today. Pray that as
00:02:46 we discuss things and that we might seek
00:02:48 thy will and thy understanding. We pray
00:02:51 for
00:02:52 thy spirit to be here with us. And we
00:02:55 pray that as we move forward and as we
00:02:59 go about the rest of this day that we
00:03:01 can do good that we can look find
00:03:03 opportunities to serve others and to
00:03:06 share thy love with those around us. We
00:03:09 thank thee again father for many
00:03:12 blessings. We pray for these things in
00:03:13 the name of thy son Jesus Christ. Amen.
00:03:15 Amen. Amen. That’s right. So
00:03:20 I wanted to meet with you with these two
00:03:22 brethren. That’s fine. Because I’ve been
00:03:24 used I’ve in the church we believe in
00:03:27 councils. Yeah, I I’m aware there’s
00:03:30 helps us. No, yes, it is a presidency
00:03:33 and it helps helps us to know the will
00:03:35 of the Lord and great. I mean I have my
00:03:38 friends that help keep me in check, too.
00:03:40 And I I I these brethren I trust I know
00:03:44 they’re men of God and I I know that
00:03:48 this is important to Father in Heaven.
00:03:51 It’s important to me and I want to make
00:03:54 sure we get this right. Sure. Uh not
00:03:57 making excuses, but that’s why I wanted
00:03:59 a little time to pass. I wanted some
00:04:01 time to pass to sort through it. Uh and
00:04:05 I have lots of other responsibilities.
00:04:08 Sure. And so I know it’s maybe a high
00:04:11 priority to to you. Well, I know
00:04:13 actually I wasn’t worried about it. In
00:04:15 fact, I hadn’t been asking anything
00:04:18 about it. The reason it came up is
00:04:20 because my mom said something. Yeah.
00:04:22 Yeah. And we have we had talked about
00:04:25 it.
00:04:27 I can’t speak for these brethren, but I
00:04:30 know that as they’ve been approached,
00:04:32 they’ve been tried to tread lightly
00:04:34 about it because they they don’t want to
00:04:36 say or do the right thing. And but these
00:04:39 brethren were clued in the very next
00:04:41 Sunday after you and me initially taught
00:04:43 three months ago or whatever. Okay.
00:04:46 Well, um just on some things that were
00:04:48 said that um
00:04:52 interesting, but I’m not that worried
00:04:53 about it. So, okay. All right. Um so,
00:04:58 but I I I’ve told them that they’re I
00:05:02 would like us to ask questions to answer
00:05:06 questions and then from that I’ll make a
00:05:09 decision as to what what we feel we need
00:05:12 to do uh in behalf of the church. Yeah.
00:05:14 I I’m pretty open.
00:05:17 In fact, you can go on my blog. I put
00:05:19 most stuff there. I have a OneNote that
00:05:22 has even more that’s open in public. Um
00:05:26 it I’m not trying to hide anything. It’s
00:05:28 just sometimes it takes time to put
00:05:30 stuff on paper, especially in a nice
00:05:32 little form. So, feel free to ask. Okay.
00:05:37 Any questions come to mind from either
00:05:39 of you? gone. You No, I I just I mean I
00:05:42 I I’ve only met you, Stephen, a few
00:05:44 weeks ago when you came or months ago or
00:05:46 whenever it was when you were when you
00:05:47 came to our Sunday school class and and
00:05:49 I know you’re you were raised in the
00:05:51 church. Yes. I grew up LDS. Grew up LDS.
00:05:54 Um so
00:05:57 my mom’s side was very diligent and and
00:06:01 believers TBMs.
00:06:04 Uh my dad TBM true believing Mormon.
00:06:08 Okay. I I guess that’s an acrement out
00:06:11 there on the social world. Anyways, um I
00:06:15 was too. Uh I served a mission which I
00:06:18 paid for. Oh, where did you serve? Uh
00:06:20 upstate New York. Okay. Uh I even where
00:06:23 I’m at right now, I’m still grateful
00:06:26 that I went. Um I even still have my
00:06:28 sickle that I bought on it. Um I I still
00:06:32 have other aspects about it. I don’t
00:06:34 hate it. I still actually love it. Um,
00:06:37 my dad’s family,
00:06:41 I don’t know a lot, but they kind of
00:06:43 were members and kind of not kind of
00:06:45 more inactive. He joined in his
00:06:48 adulthood. I know that. And he’s gone
00:06:50 back and forth in going
00:06:54 um
00:06:55 when he’s kind of challenged me when
00:06:57 when I was a kid growing up and I trying
00:07:01 to bring things out that maybe I
00:07:02 shouldn’t believe. I still believed. He
00:07:04 didn’t want me going on a mission. I
00:07:04 still went on a mission. I
00:07:07 there’s something that’s always been in
00:07:09 me that innately believes and I still
00:07:12 do. Yes, there are some things I believe
00:07:14 differently than what the church teaches
00:07:17 now, but I still believe. Um, and just
00:07:21 so you know how it kind of happened. Um,
00:07:26 so,
00:07:28 uh, Yahwei started showing me some
00:07:30 things about the, uh, government, US
00:07:34 government. That’s a problem. Okay. And
00:07:37 then later I started seeing some
00:07:39 problems with the LDS church. Not
00:07:42 because I was looking for it, but what
00:07:43 happened was uh he put on my heart to
00:07:47 start looking into things deeper. Um I
00:07:50 tried to share these things and even
00:07:52 asked uh questions at the church ward
00:07:54 that I was in at the time in West Valley
00:07:56 City. Um
00:08:01 I was not treated well. Okay. Even my
00:08:04 home teacher at the time said I was
00:08:06 denying Yeshua because I had some
00:08:08 questions, which is ironic because he
00:08:10 put out a book of his qu he made a
00:08:12 actual book out of his questions.
00:08:15 Um, so I didn’t ask a church anymore,
00:08:18 but then I went to the church Facebook
00:08:20 group and asked questions and I was
00:08:22 treated badly. I had no doubts. I just
00:08:27 wanted to understand deeper. um that
00:08:30 caused me to go to
00:08:33 uh LDS Facebooks online and I it’s a
00:08:37 whole new world. Okay. I there was
00:08:40 things said there and contradictions
00:08:43 even just of leaders and even within the
00:08:45 same general conference that people were
00:08:47 bringing out in there as in not to show
00:08:50 that there’s a problem with the church
00:08:51 but as in to justify the reason that
00:08:53 they believe this way. Okay.
00:08:56 And that started opening out opening up
00:08:59 my eyes some uh but I still didn’t leave
00:09:02 the church. Um what did it is at through
00:09:06 this process of trying to learn more
00:09:09 things and trying to find some people
00:09:12 online to talk about these things. Uh I
00:09:15 met some
00:09:17 members and ex-members that still
00:09:20 believed in the restoration
00:09:22 that shared some things with me and I
00:09:25 actually tried to bring them back into
00:09:27 the church. But instead of just giving a
00:09:30 run-off answer, I started doing research
00:09:34 and I learned some things that I never
00:09:37 knew.
00:09:39 Um, and then then I I know you may not
00:09:42 believe this part and it’s
00:09:44 understandable. Yahweh told me to leave
00:09:46 the church. So I did a resation. When
00:09:49 was that? How long ago? Uh um so when I
00:09:53 started learning things about the LDS
00:09:56 church was in uh Aprilish springish 2014
00:10:01 I was it didn’t take me long to believe
00:10:04 it and we could go over some of it why
00:10:08 it’s been some of it be a little vague
00:10:10 now but I’m happy to go over it. Um, I
00:10:14 the first time he told me to do it, well
00:10:16 actually both times were in 2024 or
00:10:19 2014. Sorry that came out wrong. All
00:10:23 right. Um, and the first time these
00:10:26 friends that I were with that kind of
00:10:29 opened me up to some issues. I They
00:10:32 weren’t trying to get me to leave the
00:10:33 church. They’re talking about why this
00:10:35 is why I left. And they’re is it Jay
00:10:40 Ruben Clark? If we have the truth, we h
00:10:42 should not fear. And if we don’t have
00:10:44 the truth, it should be destroyed. I
00:10:45 believed it. I still do.
00:10:49 Um but uh Yahweh told me to leave. Those
00:10:53 friends talked me out of it because of
00:10:55 uh culture consequences of it. So I
00:10:58 listened to him. Um then later Yahweh
00:11:01 put in my heart again to remove my name.
00:11:04 Uh I was out of the country at the time.
00:11:06 Uh but when I got back, I did it as soon
00:11:08 as I could. I wrote a letter and I
00:11:12 wasn’t doing what everybody else was
00:11:13 doing. Was just sending it in. I went to
00:11:15 the bishop and turned it in. Um
00:11:19 he wanted me to stay obviously.
00:11:22 Uh he was a good guy. He he he bent
00:11:25 well. Um he would quote from the church
00:11:28 handbook. I would quote from the
00:11:29 scriptures. Uh and he was confused.
00:11:33 Honestly, I
00:11:36 I can understand why. Um he wanted to
00:11:39 keep meeting. I said fine. Uh so we met
00:11:43 three times. At the end of it he says
00:11:45 I’ll let you leave. I’m like okay. But
00:11:47 he can’t stop me. But um he was nice
00:11:50 about it. I asked for the one month.
00:11:54 Sorry if I forget the
00:11:57 name but grace period from asking as in
00:12:00 they were supposed to delay a month
00:12:01 before they did it. Um, I’ll be honest,
00:12:04 partly is because I wanted to see what
00:12:05 people would do. Instead of doing that,
00:12:09 um, they did it immediately. I still
00:12:12 went to the ward. Uh, the bishop knew
00:12:15 me. He let me go to Sunday school and
00:12:17 everything cuz he saw I’m careful at
00:12:21 church. Now, outside of church, if
00:12:25 people want, I’ll be more open.
00:12:28 Um, but I do know it’s not my building
00:12:31 and there’s there’s guidelines, right? I
00:12:34 can’t go too far here. And when I was
00:12:37 here before with my mom, I was not a
00:12:40 member and no one knew.
00:12:43 Uh, the elders president knew after a
00:12:46 while because he kept pushing to get my
00:12:48 records here. Uh, and I said something
00:12:52 true before this, but not the whole
00:12:54 truth just to avoid it because I was
00:12:56 going to go to Argentina. So I used that
00:12:58 as an excuse not to worry about it. But
00:13:00 he kept pushing. So I went and had lunch
00:13:02 with him and told him. He’s like, “Oh, I
00:13:04 would have never guessed. I I I
00:13:09 so I am careful and I’ve done it here.”
00:13:12 Um and my goal.
00:13:15 So when I came last uh whenever it was,
00:13:19 I did enjoy it. Um I I’ll tell you
00:13:22 especially for the first long time
00:13:24 leaving the church it was lonely.
00:13:28 The biggest advantage or one oh I
00:13:31 shouldn’t say but a big advantage of the
00:13:32 church is the community. I didn’t have
00:13:35 any for a very long time. It to the
00:13:39 point where when I would do sacrament.
00:13:43 Um, so I’d do a little thing online. Um,
00:13:47 and I’ve been doing it for years, but
00:13:48 there was a period that no one was
00:13:49 coming for months on end. What do you
00:13:51 mean? Like your own service, your own?
00:13:53 Yeah. I do a little Zoom thing online, a
00:13:56 fellowship and scripture study, I call
00:13:58 it. Okay. Uh, most of them are recorded.
00:14:00 You can go watch them if you want. See
00:14:02 what I say. Um,
00:14:06 anyways, it’s hard being your on your
00:14:07 own. Um, and I cried quite a few times
00:14:11 because not having the fellowship. It
00:14:14 It’s hard.
00:14:15 Um,
00:14:19 what else I was going to say? My mind
00:14:21 went blank. Anyway, oh yeah. Um, I’ve
00:14:24 done uh other churches and just trying
00:14:28 to do something which generally speaking
00:14:31 they’re fine, but uh when they will
00:14:36 uh put down Joseph Smith, I will stick
00:14:38 stick up for him and then although they
00:14:41 say I’m invited still, not really. You
00:14:44 can see it after it. And so for the most
00:14:47 part, for a long time, I haven’t done
00:14:48 anything but the online stuff. Uh, but
00:14:51 it was nice coming that one time. Um, I
00:14:55 was sitting in the back with my mom with
00:14:57 a family and the family had I did some
00:15:00 origami with them and they really
00:15:01 enjoyed it. And I’m glad you had a good
00:15:03 experience. Oh yeah.
00:15:07 Members in pretty much any church are
00:15:09 generally pretty good people. Yeah.
00:15:11 Yeah. Um, though although there are some
00:15:14 differences, I have more commonality
00:15:16 here than other churches. um mainly
00:15:20 because of the uh Joseph Smith, Book of
00:15:23 Mormon, and I will say most of the DNC.
00:15:26 There is some of the DNC that I do not
00:15:28 believe that’s authentic in the LDS
00:15:30 tradition. There’s more in the RLDS
00:15:33 tradition that I think are not
00:15:34 authentic, but that’s subject. Um Okay.
00:15:39 Okay. Thanks for sharing that. So, what
00:15:40 are your So, if you just So, I I’m just
00:15:43 trying to get an understanding of your
00:15:44 history and everything. So, if you’ve
00:15:46 not a member and you’ve had your name
00:15:49 removed from records of the church, are
00:15:52 you wanting to still attend or what is
00:15:56 what is your
00:15:59 It’s nice meeting with other believers.
00:16:01 I did enjoy I I hadn’t really been
00:16:03 looking for it, but when I came with for
00:16:05 my mom, it it was nice. So, I wouldn’t
00:16:09 mind continually coming regular as
00:16:12 possibly. There’s one time the bishop
00:16:15 brought up some teachers might not like
00:16:17 me. All right, that’s fine. Just like
00:16:18 tell me when those visit. I won’t come
00:16:20 that day. I’m not that worried about it.
00:16:22 I actually have a a a little group that
00:16:26 there’s regular comingings. So, it’s not
00:16:27 as a big I’m not so lonely anymore. Um
00:16:31 in fact, recently we went to uh
00:16:35 Independence, Missouri. For a
00:16:37 tabernacles um celebration. Oh. So, uh,
00:16:41 we mostly meet online because we’re
00:16:44 around the country. So, we all kind of
00:16:46 How big is your, uh, your group? How
00:16:48 many? Uh, the regulars, there’s six,
00:16:50 including me. Okay. Uh, there’s
00:16:54 been some that have been regular and
00:16:56 then not regular anymore because I have
00:16:58 said some things that were hard for
00:17:00 them. And also, there’s been times
00:17:04 there’s one that’s believed in flat
00:17:05 earth and I don’t. And occasionally,
00:17:08 I’ll be honest, I make fun of it on my
00:17:10 Facebook wall. She got offended because
00:17:13 I put it on my Facebook wall and she
00:17:15 started chewing me out and making fun of
00:17:18 me and I’m like, “Okay, let’s talk about
00:17:20 it.” She didn’t want to talk about it.
00:17:23 Yeah. I mean, I’ll be honest, even the
00:17:25 Book of Mormon teaches against the flat
00:17:27 earth when you know what to look for.
00:17:30 But anyways, it’s a great deception
00:17:32 nowadays. Um, and she’s really into some
00:17:37 weird things, too. Uh, because she
00:17:39 thinks the LDS Salt Lake Temple was here
00:17:42 before Brigham Young came. No, there I’m
00:17:45 serious. There’s a big group of people
00:17:46 that believe that there there’s some
00:17:48 interesting ideas out there when you
00:17:50 start looking out there. Yeah. And and
00:17:53 I’m just like, you know, they have
00:17:55 photos of them building it up. That does
00:17:58 Yeah.
00:18:01 Yeah. Anyways, um there’s some
00:18:03 interesting ideas out there. Um now,
00:18:07 when someone speaks against the church
00:18:10 that’s wrong, I will stand up and say
00:18:12 that’s not right. Um I may not agree
00:18:15 with everything they do, but that’s a
00:18:17 lie. So, I do try to stay
00:18:21 on point and factual. And also, there’s
00:18:24 a point where some people I think just
00:18:27 because one member believes it, the
00:18:28 whole church does. And even their own
00:18:31 church doesn’t even come all believe the
00:18:34 same thing. So they’re they’re applying
00:18:36 different standards to different groups
00:18:38 mainly everybody but themselves. Right.
00:18:41 So yeah. Anyways. Okay. But it’s nice to
00:18:45 have a community. Um when after I
00:18:48 removed my name, the ward still let me
00:18:50 come. They still I went to the
00:18:53 activities on the weekends. I helped
00:18:54 with the service projects. It’s
00:18:58 it’s good to be in the community. Um,
00:19:03 and there are times coming I learned
00:19:07 things that I wouldn’t have learned
00:19:09 anyways. For example, when I came, so
00:19:11 this is more for me and it’s not
00:19:13 scriptural, but I’ll tell you about it.
00:19:16 Um, so I I love symbolism, okay? And I
00:19:20 do a lot on it. I have a page that talks
00:19:22 about it. And if a fun hobby I have is I
00:19:27 uh analyze movies and bring out what
00:19:29 they’re the story behind the story. You
00:19:32 you may like some of them anyways. Not
00:19:34 to push my stuff, but I will tell you
00:19:37 you unless you have lots of time, you’ll
00:19:39 have to watch them in chunks because
00:19:40 they can get up to six to eight hours.
00:19:42 But they they
00:19:45 Anyways, um Satan has deceived the whole
00:19:48 world. I’ll just leave it at that. and
00:19:50 he’s very tricky about it. Um, but my
00:19:53 favorite ones I will tell you are about
00:19:55 the second coming that’s coming.
00:19:58 We’re like at midnight at 59 minutes and
00:20:01 maybe 59 seconds, but anyways, we’re
00:20:04 close. Um, but so I like symbolism.
00:20:07 Okay. Um, so flowers represent um Torah,
00:20:13 God’s law, okay? And women represent the
00:20:17 church. So I
00:20:21 the the little daughter wanted me to
00:20:23 make her a flower and and I I got some
00:20:25 stuff out of that because the church
00:20:27 does want God’s ball. So Okay. Okay. No,
00:20:30 that’s great. Thanks for thanks for
00:20:32 sharing that. Um, I know my my first
00:20:35 interaction with you was in that was in
00:20:37 Sunday school and and you asked a lot of
00:20:40 questions,
00:20:42 made a made a lot of comments. Sure.
00:20:45 Which I can tell you you’ve got a lot in
00:20:47 there that you want to share that you
00:20:49 believe. Sure. Uh, I hopefully you just
00:20:52 say I didn’t force anything. No, I I
00:20:54 when when the teacher
00:20:56 let me talk, I definitely did. And when
00:20:58 he didn’t want me to talk, I went quiet.
00:21:01 So yeah. Um
00:21:04 and I I so in coming here I and I don’t
00:21:09 even do this.
00:21:11 Um
00:21:13 I’m not trying to prove the church is
00:21:15 wrong, okay? Especially when I’m here. I
00:21:17 don’t even go look at my blog. That’s
00:21:18 not my focus. Um, I’m just trying to
00:21:22 share what the scriptures and what they
00:21:24 mean to help people to get confidence in
00:21:28 them because there’s a lot of scriptures
00:21:30 that are very hard to understand. And if
00:21:32 you want, I’ll just show you a recent
00:21:34 one I did a couple days ago uh when I’m
00:21:37 working on another post. If you want,
00:21:40 it’s a weird one. It’s in DNC 88. It’s
00:21:43 95. It’s got the one about the curtain
00:21:47 and heaven. Uh, and so I I have it in my
00:21:50 notes if you want to see it. But, um,
00:21:52 maybe later. A lot of it uh, helps with
00:21:55 knowing some of this imagery of what’s
00:21:56 coming up and dictionary definitions
00:22:00 because there’s a lot of definitions we
00:22:02 have forgotten that if you go look at
00:22:05 the 1828 dictionary, which is the
00:22:06 standard Jose Smith time, it brings
00:22:09 things out. And I I’ll tell you even
00:22:13 just reading the Book of Mormon and the
00:22:15 Doctrine and Covenants going to that
00:22:16 dictionary has helped me understand
00:22:18 things a lot because some of the what I
00:22:21 would because I’m a software engineer
00:22:22 I’ll say the default definition of a
00:22:25 word today sometimes is different than
00:22:27 back in Joseph Smith’s day and going
00:22:29 back and looking at the dictionary can
00:22:31 help you and it if nothing else has
00:22:34 helped me and I I’m just want to help
00:22:36 other people
00:22:38 come to their understanding. I I never
00:22:41 force. I just try to get people to talk
00:22:44 about it and think about it to see if it
00:22:47 what I have learned has helped them out.
00:22:50 So, and I will say I’m probably more
00:22:53 passionate about it than others, but I
00:22:55 do keep it under control.
00:23:00 One of the things that um you kind of
00:23:03 mentioned is
00:23:05 kind of what you you’ve discovered, kind
00:23:07 of what you’ve learned and things like
00:23:09 that. And when we come into uh like
00:23:11 Sunday school and things like that,
00:23:13 there’s we’re trying to stick to the
00:23:15 framework of a lesson, right? And so,
00:23:17 and there are there are lots I mean with
00:23:20 all of your study and knowledge, I mean,
00:23:21 you can see that there’s I mean, you
00:23:23 could you could take one verse and Sure.
00:23:25 Sure. And I think even this last Sunday,
00:23:28 um, I may have brought some extra
00:23:30 scriptures in, but for the most part, I
00:23:32 stay kept it on subject. Gotcha. Gotcha.
00:23:35 I wasn’t there. I was in Okay. Ask him.
00:23:38 Yeah. Can’t remember what it was in.
00:23:40 Yeah. No, I I think I think you Yeah,
00:23:42 you you contributed um you were the top
00:23:45 contributor. We’ll put it that way. Top
00:23:48 contributor that day. And that was a
00:23:50 little just
00:23:52 not not a not a bad thing. It was just a
00:23:54 little different I think than what we’re
00:23:56 used to. Um you know we have a teacher
00:23:58 that typically you know brother boss
00:24:01 Jason that day was you know we’ll lead a
00:24:03 discussion you know we have a lesson in
00:24:05 the come follow me manual and we talk
00:24:07 take a section or two of the doctrine of
00:24:09 covenants this year as you know I you do
00:24:13 a year on DNC your Book of Mormon and we
00:24:16 and we go through that you know and I I
00:24:18 think it may have it may have um it may
00:24:21 have
00:24:23 derailed his intended lesson a little
00:24:26 bit but I think that maybe comes from
00:24:27 your enthusiasm, you know, when you you
00:24:30 wanting wanting to share. And so that’s
00:24:33 for sure. I I hopefully the teacher
00:24:35 wasn’t mad, but um so
00:24:40 uh I take Moroni 6:9 very seriously.
00:24:43 That brings up how um the teaching
00:24:46 should be determined in the moment. Um,
00:24:50 and I also understand though within this
00:24:53 building that teacher uh had the
00:24:55 authority, but um I I do think maybe I
00:24:59 stayed on topic what he wanted. I
00:25:01 probably the biggest thing is I brought
00:25:03 some ideas in to help support the main
00:25:06 part that was going on that maybe is not
00:25:09 in the manual, but I I do think it
00:25:12 history and scriptures would bear it
00:25:14 out. But and I was trying to actually be
00:25:17 supportive
00:25:19 Um, but yes, I sometimes I will have a
00:25:21 big mouth. You admitted that, so if I
00:25:24 remember right, I think you you you
00:25:26 started with that. I I’ll show you me
00:25:28 blowing it so far. I’m full of hot air.
00:25:30 I can go almost 30 seconds blowing it
00:25:33 without stopping. So, I know I’m full of
00:25:35 hot air. So, so my my question kind of
00:25:38 what I was wanted to figure out is you
00:25:40 had kind of mentioned that there’s
00:25:42 things that specifically like in the
00:25:44 Doctrine of Covenants that we’re going
00:25:46 to probably talk about in the lessons
00:25:47 and things like that that you disagree
00:25:49 with. No, I
00:25:52 Okay, so there is a couple sections I
00:25:54 do, namely like uh I can I have a list
00:25:56 of them, but the one I know off the top
00:25:58 of my head is like 132 and 131, which
00:26:00 goes with that uh 130 also. So, if when
00:26:05 we’re discussing those sections and I
00:26:07 have them on my blog, I you can ask me
00:26:10 not to come and I won’t come because
00:26:12 those ones would probably get more
00:26:15 controversial, I guess. And if you want
00:26:18 me to stay away from those ones, I’m
00:26:20 happy to. Um because if I’m here, I I
00:26:24 will speak up. And if you guys don’t
00:26:27 want me to speak up during those ones,
00:26:30 fine. Just tell me not to come. Um now
00:26:34 on some other DNC sections I do believe
00:26:37 there might be different interpretations
00:26:40 but I will bring out other scriptures
00:26:42 that I believe will support my
00:26:44 interpretation and I don’t try to force
00:26:48 on others my way. I I’m just trying to
00:26:51 and I do think that’s partly why I like
00:26:53 to bring out the whole cannon at times
00:26:57 because multiple witnesses help confirm
00:26:59 which one’s true just as we need two
00:27:02 eyes to know how far something really is
00:27:05 to get the full picture of it. That’s
00:27:08 part of the reason we have to Yeah.
00:27:09 because when you uh there’s if I
00:27:12 remember right it’s called lazy eye. Um,
00:27:15 and they don’t have depth perception cuz
00:27:17 it’s to some degree they only have one
00:27:19 eye. Not completely, right? But just
00:27:21 give it and and they can’t get the whole
00:27:24 picture with just the one real picture.
00:27:27 You need two Sure. or more witnesses.
00:27:30 Oh, that sounds like scripture. I guess
00:27:31 I guess my my concern would be you
00:27:33 talked about that contradiction where
00:27:35 you see a you know in the Doctrine of
00:27:38 Covenants or somewhere a contradiction
00:27:40 and would want to bring out something to
00:27:42 support that. is that would be a concern
00:27:44 is during you know we’re where we’re
00:27:46 we’re meeting here you know within the
00:27:48 church we have our doctrine we have our
00:27:50 scriptures you know the prophet and
00:27:52 that’s what we teach and what we follow
00:27:55 that this would not be the venue right
00:27:57 for uh so for bringing that up
00:28:01 well on that point if you go ask even
00:28:04 members within your own ward what you
00:28:06 believe on this subject versus that one
00:28:08 sure they’re going to contradict each
00:28:10 other now probably on the core things
00:28:12 they’ll be the same. But on various um
00:28:16 on some of the more less core ones,
00:28:20 they’re going to have different beliefs
00:28:23 that contradict each other. And that’s
00:28:24 why we should talk it out with the word
00:28:27 of Yah to figure it out, right? And so I
00:28:32 I would I’m not the only one that would
00:28:34 contradict. I’ve seen it even in this
00:28:36 word when I’ve not necessarily this last
00:28:37 week, but when I used to come regularly
00:28:39 before I went to Argentina, members
00:28:41 contradict
00:28:43 period. The question is, can you show up
00:28:46 from the word of Yah? Now, I will say
00:28:49 this, when um if in class they’re
00:28:54 quoting a leader and I don’t agree with
00:28:56 it, I’m not just going to come out and
00:28:57 say he’s wrong, if I get called on, I
00:29:01 will share something from the scriptures
00:29:02 and then let people decide on their own
00:29:04 if I’m interpreting that scripture
00:29:06 correctly or not. Because there is that
00:29:08 issue, too. I’ve I still don’t
00:29:11 understand everything. I I’m still
00:29:14 learning and at times I do learn from
00:29:17 people from the church. I do believe
00:29:20 Joseph Smith quote, “We should learn
00:29:21 truth no matter where it comes from.”
00:29:25 A lot of people think that means only
00:29:28 the pulpit of their favorite church. I
00:29:30 don’t believe that. I I have learned
00:29:33 things from people. I adamantly disagree
00:29:37 on other subjects, but I try I won’t say
00:29:41 I’m perfect. I do try to analyze what
00:29:44 they’re saying with regard to the
00:29:46 subject at hand. Even despite how some
00:29:49 have treated me, and I can go over a
00:29:50 specific example of this, but I try to
00:29:53 listen to the word and what they’re
00:29:55 quoting and look at there and see what
00:29:58 they’re saying. I won’t say I’m perfect
00:30:00 at that because I I’m still uh working
00:30:04 on becoming perfect. I’m not there yet.
00:30:06 We all are, right? But um
00:30:10 well, at least in this room. Yeah,
00:30:13 that’s what we’re commanded to do. So,
00:30:14 yeah. Well, we’re commanded to be be
00:30:16 perfect, which means it is possible. I’m
00:30:20 just not there yet. Um, so I I I I
00:30:25 do believe
00:30:27 um
00:30:28 no matter who is saying it and where
00:30:30 it’s coming from, we need to take it at
00:30:34 face value. It doesn’t matter who says
00:30:36 it, it matters if it’s true or not. And
00:30:39 if it contradicts the scriptures, now
00:30:42 understanding the correct
00:30:43 interpretation,
00:30:45 um, it’s not true.
00:30:48 And so I that’s a big reason why I focus
00:30:51 on scriptures a whole bunch. Now I when
00:30:55 I do find out that I’m wrong, I’ll just
00:30:58 come out a minute. And if you want to
00:31:00 watch through my library of recordings,
00:31:02 I do it live, too. When some of the
00:31:04 other people come, they bring out a
00:31:06 point. I’m like, “Oh, I’m wrong.” I just
00:31:09 move on there. If you want the truth,
00:31:12 you should embrace it. not uh trying to
00:31:15 make yourself look prideful and um
00:31:17 saying, “No, I’m right. You’re wrong.”
00:31:19 You should take the word at it. Take the
00:31:21 word at its word. That sounds funny, but
00:31:24 it’s redundant. That’s generally not
00:31:26 that’s generally frowned upon in in any
00:31:28 language, but anyways. So, Stephen, you
00:31:32 speak about the word. Do are modern
00:31:35 prophets, seers, and revelators? Do they
00:31:38 have an You haven’t mentioned any of
00:31:40 that. Pastor, as you can tell, that’s
00:31:43 where the church is. But yeah, I know
00:31:46 our lessons, our conversations comes
00:31:48 from the modern living prophets and
00:31:51 apostles. So, I don’t know any pastor
00:31:54 Joseph Smith. Now, I a lot of people
00:31:56 love the claim
00:31:58 um titles for people, but I’ll be
00:32:01 honest, every time I ask for um fruits
00:32:06 of the titles of prophet, seer, and
00:32:09 revelator, no one’s willing to show me
00:32:12 any. And see, that’s where we’re at with
00:32:14 the church today. It’s a living, ongoing
00:32:18 church. And we and I can clearly state
00:32:22 this for we
00:32:25 that we believe that it in the words of
00:32:28 our modern-day living prophets and
00:32:30 apostles. I understand you believe that.
00:32:33 Yeah. And I won’t make a big focus that
00:32:35 I don’t as going to the church. I’ll
00:32:38 focus on what I believe is through the
00:32:42 previous prophets up to Joseph Smith.
00:32:47 Can I just previous prophets and then
00:32:50 Joseph Smith? Why
00:32:53 why Joseph Smith and not Brigham Young
00:32:56 John Taylor where’s the fruits of the
00:32:58 titles they claim? In addition, Brigham
00:33:00 Young said, “I’m not a prophet. I’m just
00:33:03 uh watching the church until Joseph
00:33:05 Smith III.” Now, I don’t believe Joseph
00:33:07 Smith III is the person who was supposed
00:33:09 to take over. And I can get into why if
00:33:11 you want, but that is what Jo Brigham
00:33:13 Young said. And he Brigham Young also
00:33:16 said he’s a Yankee guessesser. And a lot
00:33:19 of Brigham Y. Young’s doctrines are now
00:33:22 frowned upon. And if you teach them in
00:33:24 church, you will get excommunicated.
00:33:27 So it when was Brigham Y. Young actually
00:33:30 speaking as a prophet versus his own
00:33:33 ideas? No one can agree. Even today with
00:33:37 uh like for example blacks
00:33:41 um or the Adam God theory and there’s
00:33:43 many others no one in the church can
00:33:47 really agree when this prophet’s
00:33:50 speaking in as a prophet versus his own
00:33:53 personal opinion they don’t say thus
00:33:55 sayaith the yah to make it clear like my
00:34:00 favorite example that I wish um people
00:34:04 would do is
00:34:05 Moroni 8 where there’s an issue about
00:34:09 child baptisms.
00:34:11 Uh it was Mormon if I remember
00:34:13 correctly. I’m pretty sure it’s Mormon.
00:34:15 We could double check. But Mormon uh
00:34:18 found out about the issue. Uh he went
00:34:20 and prayed about it. He told everybody
00:34:23 what the revelation was. He said, “A
00:34:26 thus sayith Yahweh.” Um and then he
00:34:30 expounded it.
00:34:32 So there’s there’s clear delineation of
00:34:36 what came from Yahweh. And the D and C
00:34:39 is uh words through Joseph Smith’s mouth
00:34:42 that are very clearly thus sayith Yahw.
00:34:46 Now there are some that are letters and
00:34:48 some stuff like that, but the mass
00:34:50 majority of it is actual revelation
00:34:52 stated as from Yahweh.
00:34:55 Now, um, the closest I’ve seen from
00:34:58 Nelson, and if I’m wrong, if you have
00:35:00 something better, I’m open to looking at
00:35:02 it. I will compare it with the standard
00:35:04 word as Joseph Smith told us to, but I’m
00:35:08 happy to look at it. And that would be
00:35:09 more than anybody else has ever given
00:35:11 me. Um, but the closest I’ve seen Nelson
00:35:15 saying is he’s gotten something. He
00:35:17 doesn’t tell us what it is, and he gives
00:35:19 us his opinion of it instead of the
00:35:21 actual words of Yahweh. The Book of
00:35:24 Mormon states, and I have a post or page
00:35:27 on this many times, if you’re getting
00:35:30 word from Yah, you are to publish it. I
00:35:34 haven’t seen that. If I’m wrong, please
00:35:38 share with me. So, Stephen,
00:35:41 in the church, it isn’t about
00:35:46 proving,
00:35:47 debating,
00:35:50 or getting our points across.
00:35:55 Uh, that’s not the culture of the
00:35:57 church.
00:35:59 And does it sound like anything I said
00:36:01 that I’m trying to prove anything?
00:36:04 Well,
00:36:07 yes.
00:36:09 As such as what? Well,
00:36:15 just this the atmosphere that that your
00:36:19 approach takes
00:36:21 is different and you’ve admitted that
00:36:24 yourself. Well, I am different. Yeah.
00:36:27 My responsibility as a as a as a
00:36:30 spiritual leader is to provide an
00:36:32 atmosphere in which the spirit teaches,
00:36:35 not I or you or what you’ve learned.
00:36:40 It’s not that’s not how we approach it
00:36:42 in the church. So is anything I said
00:36:45 here do you think is against the spirit?
00:36:48 Uh in my opinion, yes. I mean can you
00:36:51 give an example?
00:36:54 Just the tone.
00:36:56 So nothing specific. Just nothing
00:36:58 specific. The tone uh the approach
00:37:05 the approach of using scriptures. Uh
00:37:10 yeah, with the your limitations.
00:37:13 Well, that’s why we discuss it. Yeah.
00:37:16 Because if I’m wrong, you can show me.
00:37:18 Yeah. We are to help each other
00:37:20 understand. Yeah. Yeah. Well,
00:37:25 Barl, do you have any other questions?
00:37:27 Um, yeah, just I guess a couple things.
00:37:30 One,
00:37:31 um, just to answer to answer your
00:37:33 question about, um, like when you said
00:37:37 if there’s a quote from like from the
00:37:39 general authorities of the church and
00:37:41 you disagree with it, um, and just kind
00:37:44 of highlight like, well, here’s a
00:37:45 scripture that kind of says this. Um,
00:37:49 one of the things that in the church
00:37:51 that we see is kind of the fruits is and
00:37:55 publishing it that you’ve kind of
00:37:56 mentioned is my general conference.
00:37:59 Those aren’t revelations. Those are
00:38:02 talks. And then they’re not saying this
00:38:05 came from Yahweh.
00:38:08 So, but and I believe anybody can be
00:38:11 inspired of Yahw. And you’ll see that
00:38:12 through the scriptures. And I do believe
00:38:15 um that at times, not that I know you
00:38:19 guys, but I believe you guys could be
00:38:20 inspired. Sure. Uh cuz he’s he works.
00:38:24 I’m not saying this to say you’re evil.
00:38:26 I’m just helping you understand why I’m
00:38:28 saying this. Yah even uses the wicked
00:38:30 for his purpose. I’m not saying you’re
00:38:32 wicked, okay? I’m just giving an example
00:38:34 of support why I believe he’s going to
00:38:36 inspire you guys. Okay? I He inspired a
00:38:39 donkey. He’s inspired Cathus, the man
00:38:43 that was trying that actually set up the
00:38:45 plan to kill Yeshua.
00:38:48 The New Testament, if you believe New
00:38:50 Testament, states that Yahw inspired
00:38:52 Cathus, a murderer.
00:38:56 Um, he can inspire anybody. And this is
00:38:58 why we have to go accept the Yah, the
00:39:01 word of Yahw, no matter where it comes
00:39:04 from, because he uses a lot of people.
00:39:08 And this is why we have to then compare
00:39:10 it with the standard word. So are you
00:39:13 saying that what we say are modern
00:39:16 prophets and
00:39:18 and seers and revelators you’re if
00:39:23 you’re saying what they’re saying or
00:39:25 actually they could be used as
00:39:26 instruments in the adversar’s hands to
00:39:29 to tell us and the other members of the
00:39:32 church the other millions of the church
00:39:35 that
00:39:37 what Satan wants to teach us. So I don’t
00:39:40 believe as antichrist so to speak. Uh I
00:39:43 do not believe that who you say are
00:39:46 prophets, seers, and revelators are.
00:39:48 Yeah.
00:39:50 And I I think I’ve made it clear from
00:39:52 the beginning on that fact that’s why I
00:39:55 removed my name. Yeah.
00:39:59 So, so I guess that’s that the core
00:40:03 thing I come back to is if you
00:40:06 you you removed your name um which you
00:40:09 explained why um and you don’t believe
00:40:12 you know prophets past Joseph Smith
00:40:16 where does the desire to be part of us
00:40:19 you understand what we believe you know
00:40:21 with the prophets and seers to be part
00:40:24 of that community part just friends. I I
00:40:28 I mean, your sign says visitors welcomed
00:40:31 and
00:40:34 you guys do I correct me if I’m wrong,
00:40:36 but I remember growing up they said to
00:40:38 be friends with your neighbors.
00:40:40 Um, and that’s part of it. And I, you
00:40:45 guys, although there’s some differences,
00:40:47 we do have some commonalities and we I
00:40:51 do believe we can learn from each other.
00:40:53 We may not always agree,
00:40:56 but I do believe we all, including me,
00:40:59 can learn from you guys. And I I do
00:41:03 learn from coming to the church. Now, um
00:41:07 that last time, it was just that one
00:41:09 example, but the time I came before I
00:41:11 left to go to Argentina, even when I
00:41:13 wasn’t a member, I was learning things
00:41:16 from the members in the ward. I don’t
00:41:19 know everything. I know that. And uh
00:41:23 there are people here that do focus on
00:41:26 the DNC and the Book of Mormon that most
00:41:29 of the world do not.
00:41:36 Now, like I said, on the ones I have
00:41:37 them listed out that I don’t believe,
00:41:40 you don’t want me to come when those are
00:41:41 the focus, just let me know.
00:41:45 I’m not trying to cause a problem. If I
00:41:47 wanted to cause a problem, I’d be
00:41:49 sitting out there on the sidewalk, which
00:41:51 you guys don’t own, during Sunday,
00:41:55 having a sign saying stuff. I’m not
00:41:57 trying to be a jackass
00:41:59 cuz if I wanted to, it’d be pretty easy
00:42:01 to do it within the law. I’m not doing
00:42:03 that. Sure.
00:42:06 Thank you for not doing that. Well,
00:42:08 you’re welcome. So, I think it’s a waste
00:42:10 of my time, but I’m just saying.
00:42:13 Yeah. I if I wanted to be a jerk,
00:42:16 there’s a lot of ways to do it within
00:42:18 the law. Yeah. Yeah. I think for me the
00:42:23 thought is is like what is our what is
00:42:26 our role when we each come to church,
00:42:28 right? And I think as the bishop was
00:42:30 kind of sharing um for each of us the
00:42:34 the goal at least for me and yeah I’m
00:42:37 saying for all of us is to invite the
00:42:39 spirit um because there’s things in the
00:42:43 scriptures that we can’t can’t prove
00:42:45 them. Um you know the things that that
00:42:48 happen the fruits that you’re talking
00:42:49 about you know you can’t prove them.
00:42:52 There’s there’s things that I can say
00:42:53 that I know there’s fruits. I see them
00:42:55 every day. And that’s why I know that
00:42:58 they’re living prophets and apostles and
00:43:00 they’re called of the Lord. Uh is
00:43:02 because I I can see those fruits. But
00:43:04 it’s not something that I could prove to
00:43:06 you or prove to anybody else. But I’m
00:43:08 not asking you to prove it. But uh there
00:43:11 are specific types of fruits that goes
00:43:13 with the titles. Sure. And uh in the DNC
00:43:18 it does tells us to pray about those
00:43:20 specific fruits to know if they are who
00:43:23 they claim. Sure. And if you want, I’m
00:43:26 happy to see what you’re saying those
00:43:28 fruits are to see if they actually fit
00:43:29 in those the titles that they claim. So,
00:43:33 but and from there, I think that the key
00:43:35 is is just like you said, inviting the
00:43:38 spirit. Ultimately, this the spirit is
00:43:40 the is the teacher. Um, and I think for
00:43:45 me, um, some of the things that you that
00:43:50 you’re sharing, it’s it’s difficult for
00:43:52 me to feel it. Um, and it’s it’s
00:43:56 difficult for me to to kind as you talk
00:43:59 about like, you know, if I hear a quote
00:44:01 from the prophet or the one of the
00:44:03 brethren and I and I disagree with it.
00:44:05 Um, one of the things that that’s
00:44:08 important in the gospel and in the
00:44:10 church is to find a way to how how can
00:44:13 we come to that? How do we change our
00:44:15 views to more align with the things that
00:44:18 the prophet is teaching us rather than
00:44:21 trying to prove them wrong? So, um, you
00:44:24 have an assumption that he isn’t a
00:44:26 prophet. Um, I do not.
00:44:30 And
00:44:32 like I said, no one’s ever willing to
00:44:34 share those fruits with me to see if
00:44:36 they actually fit. Have you
00:44:40 sought for those on your own? Oh, I have
00:44:43 looked tried to find those. Without the
00:44:46 input of someone else, but yeah. Right.
00:44:49 Through prayer, study to try.
00:44:52 Um, I don’t know many to pray about. I
00:44:56 have tried to find some. Yes.
00:44:58 I don’t know what they are. Yeah. So,
00:45:01 Stephen, why do you want I mean, you’re
00:45:03 saying you want a community. Well,
00:45:05 that’s not why I’m here.
00:45:08 I’m not here for a community. I’m here
00:45:11 to become more like Jesus.
00:45:14 Well, that’s okay. They do that through
00:45:17 a living prophet and apostle who I
00:45:19 believe is a mouthpiece to God. And that
00:45:22 being said, that’s how our church is
00:45:24 today. Well, that’s fine. You know, you
00:45:27 would have been a great member back with
00:45:28 Joseph Smith. But you will you you I
00:45:32 don’t see your why you why you want to
00:45:34 even be here if your point is to just
00:45:37 teach us what you know and us to expound
00:45:40 together what we know. It ain’t about
00:45:42 what I know and what somebody else
00:45:43 knows. It’s what father in heaven Jesus
00:45:46 Christ know and through the holy ghost
00:45:49 that bears witness of truth is how I
00:45:51 know. So it’s not it’s not this debating
00:45:55 scriptures uh piece pulling apart uh who
00:45:59 I feel is a prophet. I I just don’t see
00:46:02 any benefit for you wanting to be here.
00:46:05 I I even stated I wouldn’t try to um I’m
00:46:09 not going to talk about how the
00:46:10 prophet’s false here. Right. Right. I’m
00:46:13 here to tell you that’s going to come up
00:46:16 about every two minutes here because
00:46:19 that’s what we base Sunday on. Yeah. I I
00:46:22 mean our talks in church are on that.
00:46:24 Our talks or our our lessons in our our
00:46:27 Sunday school and priesthood are all on
00:46:29 that.
00:46:31 I I was here for a year. People didn’t
00:46:33 know I was not a member. Yeah. I know I
00:46:36 was here uh part of that when Brad Gi
00:46:40 was the elders corn president. He might
00:46:43 have told you after I told him. No, I I
00:46:45 I I could sense it. I didn’t even have
00:46:48 to I didn’t even have I didn’t even have
00:46:50 access to your membership. I could have
00:46:53 told you that you’re you you aren’t a
00:46:55 member of the church. Okay. Well, a lot
00:46:57 of people like what I said because I was
00:46:59 bringing stuff up from the scripture.
00:47:00 And that’s perception. That’s
00:47:01 perception. And I you know what? I
00:47:04 honestly don’t care if people like what
00:47:06 I say. Well, so on on the purpose on
00:47:09 coming here, it is to learn and to
00:47:12 share. Okay. And to make friends. Okay.
00:47:15 Um here almost 18 months or more, right?
00:47:19 And you just came three months ago.
00:47:21 Yeah. And it was because of the issue
00:47:23 with my mom with the neighbor that you
00:47:26 came to church. Yeah. Yeah. Uh and I
00:47:29 enjoyed it. Yeah. And I So I mentioned
00:47:32 that here. I wasn’t too worried about it
00:47:34 before. Partly because I didn’t want to
00:47:37 cause an issue for my mom, right?
00:47:40 Because I know I’m different and I know
00:47:42 she had some of an issue when I was here
00:47:44 before. But at the same time, she liked
00:47:47 it also. Yeah. She was conflicted. And I
00:47:49 I know that’s why she’s she’s, you know,
00:47:52 approached Scott. She approached Royal
00:47:54 and she’s conf she wants you with her.
00:47:56 And I get that. I get that. I get that.
00:48:00 Do you brethren have anything else you
00:48:02 want to Can I just say on the purpose of
00:48:03 life though the Bible and the Book of
00:48:05 Mormon brings out the purpose of life is
00:48:07 to come under Yeshua’s covering and to
00:48:10 keep his Torah and I seek to do that.
00:48:13 Yeah. And I will be honest I do try to
00:48:14 help others to do the same. But I’m not
00:48:18 forceful about it. I do try to help
00:48:20 people think about things in a way using
00:48:23 scriptures that would be helpful. So my
00:48:26 I just just a thought my my concern
00:48:28 would be and I I I get where where
00:48:30 you’re coming from and I can respect
00:48:32 that is
00:48:34 kind of within within the the confines
00:48:36 of the church within the walls of the
00:48:38 church coming to with your perspective
00:48:42 of a you know where you you know a
00:48:45 non-belief in the prophets and it’s just
00:48:47 a different helping people you know come
00:48:50 to the you know quote unquote truth from
00:48:53 a different place is our concern.
00:48:55 because we we we have the same
00:48:58 framework, the same belief that stems
00:48:59 from a living prophet, the scriptures
00:49:02 you’re coming from, which I appreciate
00:49:04 again, a different perspective, but I
00:49:07 don’t know that doing that here within
00:49:11 the walls of the church in Sunday school
00:49:13 is the appropriate place for that.
00:49:15 That’s my that’s my thought. A question
00:49:18 if I may. Sure. Uh so DNC 107 brings out
00:49:23 when leaders make mistakes
00:49:26 the church members are to keep them in
00:49:28 check. Mhm. And and that they are to do
00:49:32 it by the standard of his word which is
00:49:35 the scriptures.
00:49:39 Is that okay to do
00:49:42 if a if a if a leader makes a mistake?
00:49:46 Mistakes or sins? I I mean cuz in we we
00:49:50 have processes and we have things in
00:49:52 place. I I I say yes. Yeah. I mean we’re
00:49:55 we’re men, right? All of us, right? You
00:49:57 know, bishops, you know, a bishop. He’s
00:50:00 been set apart. He’s the leader of the
00:50:02 ward. He has the keys of the priesthood,
00:50:04 but he is a man. And I up to President
00:50:07 Nelson. So yeah, we would make mistakes.
00:50:10 So, and what I’m just going to say is
00:50:12 someone has to know the scriptures to
00:50:13 know when that happens.
00:50:16 Well, they can’t just trust the leader
00:50:18 when moved upon by the Holy Ghost. And I
00:50:20 think that’s the biggest thing. It’s not
00:50:22 it’s not just every member’s
00:50:24 responsibility to correct the bishop. He
00:50:27 has a priesthood leader that he reports
00:50:29 to who has a priesthood leader he
00:50:31 reports to. Uh, and we won’t get into
00:50:33 it, but I believe DNC 107 says
00:50:36 differently among other sections. So,
00:50:38 Stephen, I was hoping that this would
00:50:40 end differently. That’s why I brought
00:50:43 these brethren in because
00:50:47 what I felt all along is exactly where
00:50:50 we I stand. Okay. I I can’t have you
00:50:54 attend church meetings with us. Okay.
00:50:57 I’ll respect your decision. Yeah. I I
00:51:00 mean I I appreciate a man that’s in the
00:51:04 scriptures. I appreciate a man that digs
00:51:06 and seeks the word of God. Just not me.
00:51:09 Yeah. No. Just that. Yeah. Really? You
00:51:12 don’t want me you were left in the dust.
00:51:14 You would have been a great member with
00:51:15 Joseph Smith and Prior and back with the
00:51:18 Quran and all that other you know that
00:51:20 you did you say Quran? Yeah. Or whatever
00:51:23 else you’ve referenced. Uh the Quran is
00:51:26 not from the restoration. No. Oh Torah.
00:51:29 Maybe Torah. Okay. There’s a difference
00:51:31 just so you’re aware. Yes. And I I am
00:51:33 aware. The Torah. Uh but we have fruits.
00:51:38 There’s 400 40 million of us now and
00:51:43 temples that don’t there’s not 40
00:51:45 million members.
00:51:48 Can you bring up the statistics of the
00:51:50 church? Yeah. Because that’s the fruits
00:51:54 and well your approach is going to drive
00:51:57 people away from this building. That’s
00:52:00 not my intention. My intention is to get
00:52:03 people to get stronger belief in the
00:52:04 Book of Mormon and the DNC. Yeah. And
00:52:07 you can do that from your social media
00:52:09 site. That’s where you can choose that
00:52:12 platform, but I ain’t going to allow you
00:52:14 to use this as your platform. I wasn’t
00:52:17 trying to. Okay. Cuz I wouldn’t even
00:52:19 That’s your perception.
00:52:21 That’s This is my perception. And I’m
00:52:25 the one that makes these decisions. It’s
00:52:27 a difficult decision and I don’t take it
00:52:30 lightly. I have lost sleepless nights
00:52:33 worrying about you and your mother. and
00:52:36 I didn’t want to go here. I did not want
00:52:38 to go here. But I can tell you for the
00:52:41 whole it’s better that I don’t allow you
00:52:43 to come to church. Okay, that’s your
00:52:46 decision to make. Yeah. Yeah. But and I
00:52:50 wish it could have been differently. I
00:52:52 honestly have tried every avenue. I will
00:52:55 not agree to disagree. That’s fine.
00:52:57 Well, I could call up President Nelson
00:52:58 if I had his phone number and I can
00:53:00 guarantee you he’d tell me to tell you
00:53:01 the same thing. Oh, I’m sure he would.
00:53:03 Yeah. And so you’re just not on the same
00:53:06 page as us.
00:53:08 Yep. Right. I I mean, your own members
00:53:11 aren’t on the same page. Yeah. And you
00:53:14 know what? You can you can go after them
00:53:16 all you want on social media. I ain’t
00:53:17 going to allow you to go after them
00:53:19 here. I don’t go after people. You have
00:53:21 an incorrect perception of what I am and
00:53:25 my goals and desires. Well, I I’ll just
00:53:28 tell you I’ll take Prophet President
00:53:30 Nilson’s fruits over the six people
00:53:33 that’s following you.
00:53:36 But have you even looked? No, I don’t
00:53:37 have to look. So, how do you know my
00:53:39 fruits if you haven’t looked? Well, I
00:53:41 tell you. You just told me you have six
00:53:43 people that follow you. So, how many
00:53:45 people followed Jeremiah in his day? I
00:53:48 couldn’t tell you cuz if the the fruit
00:53:51 is the number of people, the Catholic
00:53:54 Church has more. And we all here believe
00:53:56 that the Catholic Church is wrong. It’s
00:53:58 not the numbers. Yeah. Well, I think for
00:54:02 me it goes back to the spirit.
00:54:05 Um
00:54:06 and
00:54:08 I’ll be your friend.
00:54:10 I I don’t have any just not here. I’ll
00:54:13 be your friend wherever. Well, you made
00:54:15 your decision. You don’t have to justify
00:54:17 it to me. You got to justify it to
00:54:19 y’all. Yeah. And I already have. I am I
00:54:22 have a clear conscience before God of
00:54:25 this decision and this meeting helped me
00:54:28 solidify that and I I’m sorry it’s not
00:54:30 the outcome that we hoped but but it is
00:54:33 what okay what Jesus wants us to do. We
00:54:37 disagree about that but that I
00:54:38 understand why you say that. Yeah. And
00:54:40 you call him by his old names and all
00:54:42 that stuff but but we still call him
00:54:46 Jesus. Yeah. So, and again, Stephen,
00:54:50 that’s what I’m talking about. The
00:54:51 debates just can’t happen in our war.
00:54:54 You’re the one I brought up that’s
00:54:56 making a big deal how I call him Yes.
00:54:58 Yeah. I didn’t make a big deal how you
00:55:00 call him Jesus. Until you made a big
00:55:02 deal about
00:55:07 Thank you.
00:55:19 What are they eating?